Atheism, a dangerous idea?

I said earlier that I don't know. I said we should start a thread on it. This just proves my point that it is debatable based on a book that Christians follow. If I was an atheist, we would not be having this discussion. They were part of a hardened society, they were going to have hardened hearts, and God must have knew it.I have just as much trouble as you with it, I can't understand why babies were killed, but that is one possible explanation. I do not pretend to know God's ways of the OT.

Again, I say what is the difference? You are not arguing the point, and getting lost in a sidebar that has nothing to do with what you first accused me of. Something you always do. You seem to think by proving that lot's and everyone are different, that somehows proves your point, when it doesn't matter whether lots and everyone are the same or not, for purposes of this forum rule breaking sidebar.The point was that you decided to speak for a bunch of people, and attack the person not the arguement. I don't have debating tactics, I am here just discussing, maybe you are debating, that is why you resort to attacking people. Why doesn't an admin tell you that attacking the person is wrong? It must be a conspiracy. It has been noted already in these forums, that I am a catylist for people, and I always get attacked by several. I receive emails confirming this, and there are people who stick up for me when I make correct assertions.All this happens, most of the time, simply because I am Christian. Sometimes it happens when I make incorrect assertions, and the wise polite people will point it out, without insulting me. Then I gain a chance to grow. I do not gain a chance to grow when I am verbaly assaulted. That is the point of this sidebar we are having, not lots and everyone. Stick to the point, and maybe you'll start understanding me a little better, and explain why I am wrong in a rational non-insulting manor, and we can make progress.We have been talking together for how many years now?I'll tell ya, over two years, and you have always resorted to this attacking tactic. It is getting old.I would love to express myself more clearly, so that you could understand me, but I have little chance, as long as you keep resorting to this tactic.

No schraf, this is the point of the sidebar. This is the topic that started it.

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I think you are using the "I've been misunderstood" thing as a ruse to not have to address our rebuttals, since you have been known to be as slippery as a greased weasle under a sprinkler.

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As usual, you have drifted away from the topic, to somehow undermine what I am saying, and falsify my words, by making me appear wrong.This only backs up my original assertion that you have a comprehension problem, or maybe it is your attention span.So you have backed up my point, and haven't addressed any attempt of mine to put this BS to rest, and learn to get along. We both win, if we can get along.

I never said it makes atheism dangerous, I said it scares me. Just like most religions scare me.Even though all the Christian religions can have slight variences in their moral systems, they should at least be following the golden rule.All religions cannot be held accountable for all other religions, if they aren't following this. An atheist doesn't have to follow this, and can make up any rule he wants to live by.A Christian who doesn't follow at least the golden rule, is no better than an atheist who doesn't follow it either. As a matter of fact it is worse, because I would look at the Christian who doesn't follow the rule as a hypocrite. At least an atheist who doesn't follow it, is honest. But how will God look at a Christian who doesn't follow the golden rule?Too many people in this forum make the mistake of saying that Christianity must be bad, if there are a lot of "bad Christians". Then out of the other side of their mouths start threads asking why Christians don't follow their own rules.There is nothing wrong with Christianity, there is something wrong with people.If you knew that I was soliciting prostitutes when no-one was looking, and when confronted, I denied it, because I don't want to lose my image of being Christian, or a good follower, you would know in an instant what kind of person I was. You would also have the right to walk up to me, and call it on me.On the other hand, if I saw an Atheist doing the same thing, I probably wouldn't even question it. He has his own moral code, and can do whatever he wants. He has not subscribed to any moral code, other than the one he invents in his mind. That is way to broad of a statement. Some of the core values of Christianity are way to obvious to be thinking that Christians or any other religion can go and make up any moral they want. You can discuss it, but there is no official code of ethics for an atheist. So that point is mute. Basic? Such as?Claiming to be Christian, and being one, are two different things in my book. I do not subscribe to the thought that if you say you are Christian, you are one. You are one by your actions, not your mouth. You are one in your heart, not your brain.I don't care what people say, Hitler was not Christian when he was killing all those Jews. He only said he was one. If I believed that Hitler was Christian during those acts, then I would believe that all atheists are bad because they don't believe in God.Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

Define sucessful.We have dedicated missions in both those countries.If you want to call the way the mojority of both those nations live sucessful, then maybe you should move there.

I will explain it for the last time. It is pretty elementary.If someone claims to be Christian, then they should at least be trying to be Christian, no? Otherwise they are a liar, or do not know what it is to really be Christian. If you believe in Jesus, you will make an attempt at trying to be like Him. Of course there are no perfect Christians, but there should be some distinction between a person claiming to be Christian, and the rest of the world. The bible even teaches us this, this is how we know, and can say things like, hey that guy over there must really love God, because of his actions.On the other hand, if a person claims to be an atheist. WE have no way to judge if he is or isn't, and anything this person thinks to be morally correct, or any of his actions are really not judgable by any standard. He is no more a liar if he hates his neighbor, or hates his parents.Of course both Christian an atheist have to follow rules of society, but that only makes things that they do wrong by law, not what is in their hearts, or what they profess to be.So when I meet someone, and he says "I am an atheist" I really do not know anything about the person, other than he is claiming to not believe in God. But if I meet someone and they say, I am a Christian, by his actions, we can see just how hard he is trying to be one.I am not someone who thinks that you can just believe in Jesus, and that makes you a Christian. Maybe you'll get into heaven by grace, but to be a Christian is a continuing process, one of growth, and love of your God, and people. I cannot judge if a person is atheist or not.disclaimer: I used the word judgment a lot in this thread. Keep in mind, that it is ok to judge people IMo, as long you can take to be judged the same way. You can also judge, without passing judgement. It's what I have seen in life. Yes, I agree. That doesn't make what I said any different.

I believe it does, to a point. That point being that no person is perfect. No one is Jesus here. But there should be an obvious distinction.Take a look at the phelps family and what they are doing. They claim to be Christian, but to me, they are clearly not. I don't hold it against them spiritually, for they are probably decieved. This is an excellent question, and 2.5 years ago, I probably would not have gave the right answer. You need to get deep into the bible, and have a close relationship with God to understand just exactly what is supposed to change.You cannot just stand up in a church and say "Jesus I accept you with all my heart, I am a sinner, and I know you died for my sins on the cross" then go home and get stoned and drunk and sit around the house all day cursing with your friends, the same exact thing you did before you said that prayer. There was no change.That is pretty much what I did about 8 years ago, and I thought I was born again. Well think again, because I wasn't. I was seeking the Lord, by reading the bible, and praying here and there, but ultimately it was God who called me out, and then I got experience the truth, the Holy Spirit, and then there was major change in my life due to the revelation that God blessed me with. There was a change physically that everyone noticed, and a change internally, that everyone noticed. I won't say my life did a 180, because my life was pretty good to me already, but it did do a major 90.I can detect this change in others as well, now that I have been through it. If someone had tried to describe it to me before it happened, all my responses would echo your own, and there would be no real understanding of it.Everyone I know now, can clearly see that there is a difference in me, and there is a standard to compare it to, being the word of God.With an atheist, there just isn't any standard whatsoever, so it is nondebatable. You understand that doesn't make all atheists bad or dangerous, but that it can be a scary thought, not knowing what a person is trying to stand for. Of course we can just ask them. I love my atheist brothers, really I do. I fear them, and I am very careful who I get involved with. I also have to deal with the bad name they make for all Christians. I've seen so much from people, that I don't know what to expect anymore, nothing surprises me. Sounds like a nice place to live. Don't misunderstand me, I find people in general to be nice and acceptable, from a distance. And it really doesn't matter to me who or what you are, I wasn't raised that way.

There are a number of explanations for that. But I have not experienced that, so I am just guessing. But in guessing I would say that, the church they were in was probably not for them.I could not go to just any church. I feel so blessed that I finally found one where the people make sense. It took over ten years.But church, and God are two different things.Maybe now that they left the church, they are more free to be "Christian", or be closer to how God would perfer to have us live, than if they were in the church. Even if they don't claim to believe. That is why I hold nothing against a single atheist.I have even argued that there may no such thing as a "true atheist" and everyone is born agnostic. I think some people are even atheist out of anger towards the church, I sense it in a lot of peoples writings here in this forum. It is the churches fault, not God's.The kingdom of God is right here, in this conversation.

That doesn't startle me in the least. He was only a minister by faith alone. I wouldn't say it happened like that for me. I accepted no new belief system once I had felt the Holy Spirit. I was already believing, on faith alone. In other words, I read the bible, and agreed on what I thought it meant morally, and decided to follow it. But once I felt the Holy Spirit, it was a completely different story, and a life changing event, not done by my own decision, but one done by the power of God. I was/is not ever capable of making such a change like that by my own will. If you knew me before, and afer you would agree to that. I think it is more a sense of relief, that they don't have to conform to a set of rules, and then can be who they are in God eyes. Whether they confess to believe or not. Again I have to point out that religion and God are 2 different things.Just like you look at the world around you. IT is pretty obvious to me, if that God created the world, we can learn about God by studying the world, and all that's in it. As we advance in knowledge we can clearly see just how precious it is, and what a responsibility we have to keep it that way. As we advance in technology, we have a moral responsibility to uphold, that is where the different belief systems start conflicting a bit.This heightened awareness towards my fellow man is not what I experienced. I am sorry for doing this, but I am going to throw in a bible verse here, one of the most important ones IMO, and I really want you to ponder it for a sec.Acts 1:6So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"7He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."To be a witness means you have actually seen or experienced something. That is the difference between someone who believes by faith alone, and someone who has experienced the Holy Spirit. I could not understand this until I went through it myself. They were just words up until that point. I thought that only the people of that time were privileged to experience such a thing.I know what your thinking, and that is all religions have some kind of experience, or "conversion experience." I just don't know about those. All I can say is what I felt. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth, it is truth.Do you know the feeling you get when someone tells you the truth? Times that by a thousand, and you'll start to get the picture. This is way different than some kind of hieghtened awareness towards my fellow man. It is way to complex to be covered in a single post, or even a single thread.There was a memeber of EVC that was trying to down play my experience once, telling me it was all BS, and the reason why was because he had been through 5 conversion experiences himself. Not to put him down or anything, but come-on, how can any of them be valid or life changing if they were real? If there is one truth, and that is the way to God, then it is built inside you. Surely if this is the way to know the truth, and the devil exists, then there will be fakes out there. I don't know if all the other religions are fakes or if they were put there by God, because they need to be, but only one way is going to work for you. The truth will resound within your soul like someone hitting a tuning fork, and the sound is in perfect harmonics with every cell in your body.Atheism, religion, those are belief systems. Agnostics don't know what to belive. Truth is what is. God is what is. I am more fine with that, than you know. I broke away from "christianity" when I was 8 years old. God made me smart enough to realize that the Catholic church I was in, was full of BS. I was able to look at the world without any pre-conceived notions about who and what God is. I was able to start making sense of it with the brains God gave me. I was free. I did not know if God existed, so I was agnostic for the next 17 years. Then my daughter was born, and a bell went off. I started searching more for God. another 8 years, and I accepted Him by faith alone. Does that even make you a believer? I was still not sure in my heart, but I was still seeking. another 6 years, then God just called me out, nad then it was more than "faith alone".Are Atheists dangerous? Hardly. But with no moral standard to go on, it can be anything goes. Who knows what could happen, or what kind of society we could become? Are all atheists good? no. Are all christians good? no. Do we become a Godless soceity? Are we governed by the "greater good"? Just what is the greater good anyway? Anything science deems to be good? I am only partially ok with that, because I believe science can discover a lot of what is good, and why. However love is good, and yet science cannot fully define it. I think love needs to be a part of who and what we are on this earth, and if God is love, then God is part of it. Atheist don't believe in God so where does that leave us, that is my point. The morals of an atheist are not defined at all. Somehow most people in here seemed to think, that I meant that automatically makes an atheist a bad person. That couldn't be further from the truth.

Right which justifies the original statement I made. IT becomes debatable then. Your a smart guy, you've probably read a lot of the bible. Can you possibly fathom how people can use the bible as justification for bigotry?You can debate it based on what the bible says. If I was atheist and a bigot, it really wouldn't be that debatable. You couldn't come to me and say, your not following your ways correctly, you are not who you say you are.I could say, I am a bigot, and thats it. Closed case. But if I was Christian and said that, it would be a whole different story. They were irrelavent to me also, until I experienced them.
Blessings.

I don't have to make a case for it. It is what it is. The Atheists have made the case for me, right here in this thread.
If there is a morality standard, then show it to me. I believe a few people have posted different standards for themselves in here already. Did I ever claim one was better than the other?
I only claimed one was debatable, and one wasn't.
A few atheists have said that yes it is debatable, but what standard are we using to debate it? We can discuss it, but we can't debate it really. I never said that either. I know many more upstanding atheists than Christians, so where does that leave us?If there was one standard I could pick from the bible, that would be love. Love one another, as you love yourself. They should at the very least be following the 2 golden rules. But I hardly see that happening in reality.My church, almost every meeting we have, we go over those 2 rules, and all the little things that make those rules happen, and see how we are doing with it. Things like speaking the truth in love, being humble, soft eyes and voice, not judging, being open to critisism, etc.Only by going over these things, can we see how the enemy of our souls start to infiltrate our lives, and then we have to take a step back and correct ourselves. It is very difficult to do these things, and it shows me in one way, how we are born into a life of sin. There seems to be no escape, so you learn to live by grace. I think atheist live by grace better than Christians.It is funny, how simple of a statement I made, and how everyone took it the wrong way. My original statement stands, and has not been sucessfully reffutted IMO. Somehow everyone took that as atheists being bad, and Christians being good, when that is not what I said at all. Makes me wonder.

Congradulations, you get the "statement taken out of context award" for this thread.Try re-reading the complete paragraph, and try to get out of it, that I meant that one was better than the other. Or that a lack of moral standards IS dangerous.

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Are Atheists dangerous? Hardly. But with no moral standard to go on, it can be anything goes. Who knows what could happen, or what kind of society we could become? Are all atheists good? no. Are all christians good? no. Do we become a Godless soceity? Are we governed by the "greater good"? Just what is the greater good anyway? Anything science deems to be good? I am only partially ok with that, because I believe science can discover a lot of what is good, and why. However love is good, and yet science cannot fully define it. I think love needs to be a part of who and what we are on this earth, and if God is love, then God is part of it. Atheist don't believe in God so where does that leave us, that is my point. The morals of an atheist are not defined at all. Somehow most people in here seemed to think, that I meant that automatically makes an atheist a bad person. That couldn't be further from the truth.

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There is no moral standard. Please show it to me if I am wrong. Jesus does provide an absolute moral standard. It is called the Holy Spirit. We all experience it whether you believe or not. But that does not mean we actually follow it. No, we are all just human. However there are many times when people who are filled by the Spirit, do act in the same manor, and get a long fine. An example from the bible would be after the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit fell on everyone, this was the gift sent to us by Jesus:

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Acts 2
The Fellowship of the Believers
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

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That is the standard I wish we all could live by. But I am guilty also of not living completely that way. I take many steps now towards trying to live like that, as this is where the Holy Spirit is guiding me. One must lose his life to gain it.Anything short of that scenerio, to me, is really falling short of how Jesus wants us to be with one another. Is that situation dangerous? They all seem to be enjoying the same standard there, and God was blessing them. That's pretty complicated. Some are not really knowing the truth, or the Spirit, some are decieved, some are still growing, and some are just flat out liars......cough..green miracle rag..cough...But we can look at them(people claiming to be Christian), and debate their stance, where as on the other hand, an atheist is free to have any moral standard he chooses, whether it is the greater good, or whatever, without debate. (That is my original statement reworded)What way is better?, where will this all lead us?, I don't know, it's just a point, and how I see it. I will not claim that one is better than the other, I will leave that judging up to God. For all I know, being an atheist for someone else, may be exactly how God wants that person to be, after all, nothing happens except by the will of the Father.

That is not what I implied. I am saying, not implying, that the morals within the bible, are debatable, because they are WRITTEN OUT.Stop trying to figure out what I am implying, it is as if you have a guilty conscience. These 3 statements back up what I am saying, not implying. None of those examples you provided are written down, or debatable.So the moral standard of the children of Brad Pitt, and David Berkowitz are the same then? That is not for me to tell you how. I can only share how I do it, and that is by praying. Before God revealed the Holy Spirit to me, I was much more gullable, and easily decieved. I thought it was made clear that laws are not morals. There will always be problems between people no matter their moral system. You are now implying, again, that I am claiming one to be better than the other, I wish you would stop. Please separate those issues.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!At least read what I write.ok, for the last time. They can be discussed, but they cannot be debated, because they are not written down, they are not absolute. I have said that already. Stop twisting the words around to make them appear wrong. I have no way of knowing that. I never said that either. I have never said they were dangerous, about 4 or 5 times already.
We just don't know yet. That's how I feel, but I am not sure others agree with you.Edited by AdminJar, : fix missing code

We have kind of gone over that already, and the answer is that there are some that are absolute, and some that are gray areas, and some that people just make up. However, we could sit down drink a beer, study the bible, and debate it.Surely the morals Jesus was trying to teach us aren't floating morals. It is our interpretation that is floating. That is what gives the ability to debate it. Sure, but what does that have to do with what I said. An atheist can pick and choose what he wants, there is no standard. Never said that. You got that right.
But at least they are familiar with the commandments. I would at least think those are pretty absolute. Whether we follow them or not, is another story.