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Author
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Topic: Atheism, a dangerous idea?
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 54 of 241 (328489)
07-03-2006 10:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 46 by riVeRraT
07-03-2006 6:56 AM
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Need some clarification
riVeRraT writes: But an atheist can do what ever he wants. Why? Doesn't the atheist live within the same society as the theist?
He act how he feels at the moment, ... ... and does have a set of morals to live by, and if he does, we just don't know what they are. I broke that sentence into two parts to deal with the two issues presented. First, do you have any support for the first quote? Can you show that an atheist is any less likely to be able to look at the potential consequences of an action or that their behavior is in anyway different than a theist? In the second quote, I think you left a word out or the statement makes no sense. Often the issue comes up where Christians in particular lay claim to some objective morality, but when they are asked for specifics, so far they have failed to produce any absolute or objective examples. How is that any different from the situation concerning atheists?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 46 by riVeRraT, posted 07-03-2006 6:56 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 64 by riVeRraT, posted 07-03-2006 11:34 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 75 of 241 (328535)
07-03-2006 12:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 64 by riVeRraT
07-03-2006 11:34 AM
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Re: Need some clarification
So you are saying an atheists individual moral standard is limited to the law? Not at all. Law has nothing to do with morality.
What is the difference between a good atheist, and a bad one. Exactly the same as between a good Christian and a bad one.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 64 by riVeRraT, posted 07-03-2006 11:34 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 77 by riVeRraT, posted 07-03-2006 12:07 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 80 of 241 (328545)
07-03-2006 12:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 77 by riVeRraT
07-03-2006 12:07 PM
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Re: Need some clarification
What does our society have to do with an individuals morals if the law has nothing to do with it? Where do morals come from? Morals come from an internal, inate understanding of what is needed to get along in society. Morals develop with experience, are learned behavior and dependant on the era, culture and particular circumstances of any given incident. IMHO Law is never moral, it is an absolute and one of the most important messages that the Bible does contain is that we must not look on Law as moral.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 77 by riVeRraT, posted 07-03-2006 12:07 PM | | riVeRraT has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Thou irrefutable one helpeth Brother Ratzo rizzo
Mikey says:
The fact is that by definition, a Christian has a moral foundation, hypothetically and officially. and then:
From what I've read, he has only claimed that atheists don't have an objective moral foundation, generally speaking. Note the switch Mikey. In one you mention a moral foundation and in the other you make it objective moral foundation. So far no one has been able to show the Objective Moral Foundation of Christianity, so why should that be a requirement of atheists? If Christians can claim that they have some code laid out in the Bible or in Scripture why cannot an atheist simply point to the vast body of literature as their foundation?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Thou irrefutable one helpeth Brother Ratzo rizzo
The answer is actually in this question. "Christians", "atheist". The answer is in the plural. One atheist could point to literature. That's totally fine. But there is another atheist who doesn't read from the vast body of literature. So what does every unit of the set "atheist" share? Do you know how often when I talk to Christians I find they have not even read the western Bible, much less scripture. Every unit of "atheist" shares the same set of social mores as a coexistent Christian.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: An Argument and explanation
-- The atheist ideology does not disallow wrong And your support for this is?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 216 of 241 (332594)
07-17-2006 3:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 215 by riVeRraT
07-17-2006 3:14 PM
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Re: Implication of superiority
ok, for the last time. They can be discussed, but they cannot be debated, because they are not written down, they are not absolute. But what is there to make the Christian or Biblical morals absolute? And what makes you think that secular morals are not written down? What about all of the works of the thousands of Philosophers down through the ages? Further, saying that an atheist has not read them carries little weight. Many Christians have not actually read the Bible.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 215 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2006 3:14 PM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 218 of 241 (332649)
07-17-2006 6:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 217 by riVeRraT
07-17-2006 6:10 PM
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Re: Implication of superiority
Surely the morals Jesus was trying to teach us aren't floating morals. Really? It seems to me that all the morals jesus taught were very subjective.
Sure, but what does that have to do with what I said. An atheist can pick and choose what he wants, there is no standard. And so can Christians. Look at the wars, oppression and other great evils done under the guise of following Christ.
But at least they are familiar with the commandments. I would at least think those are pretty absolute. Whether we follow them or not, is another story. Really? Which commandments. What are the absolute ones?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 217 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2006 6:10 PM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 220 of 241 (332664)
07-17-2006 6:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 219 by riVeRraT
07-17-2006 6:43 PM
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Re: Implication of superiority
Right, we can look at it, examine it, compare it to scripture, and have a debate over whether it really was a "Christian war" or had the backing of God. Try to do that with an atheist. Of course I can have the same discussion with an Atheist. In fact there is far more "scripture" in the Atheist world than for the Christian. And, as you admit the morals of Christianity are all subjective.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 219 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2006 6:43 PM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 225 of 241 (332807)
07-18-2006 8:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 223 by riVeRraT
07-18-2006 6:12 AM
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Re: Implication of superiority
Ok then, I have been asking for this scripture throughout this entire thread. A few atheists have shared their own moral ideas. So aside from "not believing in God" just what is this scripture you speak of? And how does it apply to all atheists? And on several posts I supplied some examples Rat. The Scritpture is the vast body of work from Philosophers that have dealt with the issue of right behavior down through the ages. Hell, riVeRraT, every fairy tale, most nusery rhymes, the works of the Greek Philosophers on down to those of Kafka and Twain are included. Even the Bible (which many atheists have not only read, but know better than many Christians) is included. It includes the works of Confucius, of Mencius and Lao Tzu as well as the Qur'an and all other scripture. "Not believing in god" is not part of Atheists scripture, it is their position. GOD and the question of which God is GOD just doesn't come up in the Atheists worldview, they waste no time on that issue. Instead, they are concerned about morality, ethics, society in a way that few theists can even comprehend.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 223 by riVeRraT, posted 07-18-2006 6:12 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 226 of 241 (332810)
07-18-2006 8:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 224 by riVeRraT
07-18-2006 6:15 AM
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Re: One thing at a time.
Please provide an example of absolute morality of an atheist. There are none riVeRraT just as there are none for the Christian.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 224 by riVeRraT, posted 07-18-2006 6:15 AM | | riVeRraT has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 234 of 241 (333247)
07-19-2006 8:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 228 by riVeRraT
07-19-2006 6:13 AM
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Re: Implication of superiority
None of it is a standard, they acn choose what to follow, and what not to follow, and make up anything they want along the way. That is my point for the last time. And my response is that that is also true for the Christian.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 228 by riVeRraT, posted 07-19-2006 6:13 AM | | riVeRraT has not replied |
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