Let us reason together.

No, no - you're jumping the gun. (Shhh, you'll ruin the surprise.) First we have to determine how many kinds were on the Ark.Then we have to determine how all those kinds survived after the Flud long enough for the ecosystem to recover from a mass extinction event that was worse than all the others combined (they have to eat something while repopulating the Earth, no?)Then we have to determine how any kind survived from a start so far below any reasonable minimum viable population, especially without leaving any genetic evidence of it.Then we have to figure out how flash adaptive radiation and lightning fast speciation occurred in only 4500 years.Then and only then do we have to figure out biogeography.

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If you want to insult me (drummy, etc.) thats fine.

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No insult intended. You can call me Dave if you wish.

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The great debate is if there is a creator or we evolved by time and chance. Truthfully what really makes sense?

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The idea of a god makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever, but the fact that it is an easy concept for many people to grasp who have insufficient understanding of science and logic does.

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We see mutations yes but no animal has evolved into another.

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This sounds like your very first post on EvC. Have you read nothing during your stay? Do we have to repeat everything over and over?

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I believe there are mistakes, etc. because of sin

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Which scientific mistakes are born of sin? The adultering palentologist misidentifies a Homo Erectus skull?

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The world has been changed. If the bible is just a magical book are you not just closing your mind? The bible is a book of history.

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I never said the Bible was a magical book, though it does contain magic/fantasy. It is my open mind that has revealed all the frauds of psychics, spoonbenders and all the others who claim to use supernatural powers as they dupe the general public that are brainwashed by popular entertainment and religion.

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Many people take the bible out of context. When someone reads something in the bible it seems like they think that God is approving everything. If I am wrong please let me know.

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From my covert visits to Christian web forums, it seems more like they think God dissaproves of everything (unless it's what they do and like of course)

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Sure there are similarities in man and ape. But they are not the same. They never have been.

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Very true, humans and apes are not the same, just like a Koala is not the same as a Grizzly. But follow the fossil records back, and you find fewer modern human bones and more bones 'similar' to humans. Then go back further and you find fewer of those similar bones, but more species simliar yet different in some way. All these fossils gradually build a picture, just like pieces in a jigsaw puzzle — you may not have all the pieces, but you can make out the final picture.It seems you and other creationists won't accept the full picture until all the pieces are found.

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There is more to life than are five senses. People believe that the bible is just some religious text book written by some sheep herders or whatever. Lets look at what is written.

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Yes, there are more to life than five senses. No, I don't know whether the Bible was written by sheep herders. Was it?

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Lets look at what is written.
Hebrews 11:2 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

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It's 11:3 not 2.

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If God explained everything we would have a infinite amount of books. Is that a problem? Is it your world or His? Here is a couple more if interested. Rather than insulting eachtother, why don't we just be mature and just look at the evidence. The facts. Science is the study of things that are made. If we evolved by time and chance did a automobile? Of course not. Does a car have a purpose? Yes. But we just evolved by time and chance? Evolution means adding information. Do we see that? No. Everything is slowing down.

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I have no need to insult you, but your continual ignorance of what has been recited to you over and over in an attempt to help you understand is itself an insult. Once again you put forward the same tired statements that others and myself on this forum have discussed with you at great lengths. Yet you repeat yourself as if they never happened.I won't quote the rest of your post as it slides downhill into full-on preaching. You use circular reasoning to prove the existence of God. You propose easy-to-understand explanations for life are more valid than scientific answers because they are, well, easy to understand. But you fail to see all the evidence that proves, yes proves, that Genesis is pure bunk.You have one single book written by humans containing 2000 year old knowledge that a modern 5 year old child could question. Just one ancient book and you think you know everything because you don't think science makes sense.If the only single evidence for evolution was Origin of the Species, would anyone take it seriously? Of course not, and they didn't until time after time more evidence was put forward to support the theory. Evidence that the theory predicts.I'm sorry Drummmachine, I'm sure you're a nice person, but I just know that whatever is put in front of your eyes will be ignored. You have been brought up to think a certain way and you may never break your mind away from fundamentalism. You are trapped by the fear of fire and brimstone, and won't take a leap of faith that could release you from a book created for no other reason than to trap those afraid of the unknown.Great to be a Christian? No. Definately not.

Usually appending a "y" or "ie" to a name is termed a diminutive and is often employed as sarcasm or insult when addressing someone you don't take seriously, as if they were a child. The equivalent to drummy would be Davie, not Dave. I think this and what preceded it are a response to what is perceived as preaching by Drum, and I know from personal experience that unwanted preaching can be pretty irritating. Once I was in an evolution discussion where one of the respondents ended every post with "Yours in Christ," and finally someone said, "This is supposed to be a science discussion, how would you feel if I ended every post with "Yours in Darwin?" I'm not sure the argument is valid, but it seemed to get the point across.Drum, if you'll make an effort to detect when you're drifting from objective to faith-based arguments that might look like preaching to others, I'll continue to insist that everyone follow the forum guidelines and treat other members with respect.By the way, Drum, if you use the little "reply" button that's at the bottom of each message (look down an inch or two) then a link to your message will be included under the "Replies to this message" list that appears with every message, and that message will appear under the "This message is a reply to" heading of your own message, making it possible to tell who you're replying to. The general reply links at the top and bottom of the webpage will not do this. They should only be used when making a general response addressed to no one in particular.------------------
--EvC Forum Administrator

i believe it was on this forum that i found reference to _where do we come from?_ by kein and takahata. i owe that person a big thank you for pointing out simply the best book i have seen yet on human evolution. surprisingly he will and does take the time to introduce ideas in such a way that an educated intelligent layman will get the tools to understand the discussions. this is very unusual and very well done.it is good enough, and complete enough to recommend it as the basis for any real discussion of the issues. for it brings everyone who reads it uptodate with the crucial points of evolution. that is really the reason so much of the creation evolution debate is a question of "he said, she said" because the common base of knowledge on the subject is often shallow. people seem to prefer not to do their homework and talk without trying to grasp the facts of the discussion via intensive study of the fields involved.if anyone has similiar recommendations please share them with me.thanks
richard williams

Point taken admin. Name shortening does have contextual implications.I would, however, like to retract my last comment ("Great to be a Christian? No. Definately not.") as I feel it was unnecessary. Yes, I was on a rant. Sorry Drummachine.

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Psalm 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.

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The earth revolves around the sun. Does it not move?

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They only need two dogs. Not every different kind. We see all different kinds of dogs with longer or shorter noses, colors, shapes, etc. Just as man or any other animal. Are they still dogs? Yes.

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...they only need two apes. Not every different kind such as chimps, gorillas, orangutans, australopiths, Homo erectus, Neanderthals, and humans. We see all different kinds of apes with taller or shorter bodies, denser/sparser hair, bigger/smaller brains. Are they still apes?YES.[resounding]

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The ark was 45 x 75 x 450. It could easily fit them all.

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LOL!!! Wow, what a devastating argument. Could you get a little less detailed?Where would they put all the food?How would they keep all the prey animals safe from the predators for an entire year?Once they all got off of the ark, how would the prey animals survive without any vegetation to eat? What would the predators eat, considering that there were only a few pairs of single species around?Here is an excerpt from a previous discussion I had with a Creationist about the Biblical flood/Ark. It's from message 15 in the Animals on the Ark thread, Geology and the Great Flood forum. Perhaps you can explain how there could have been enought food on the Ark to feed just these two horses, let alone ALL the other animals:"Let's assume that there were only two horses on the Ark.Let us also assume that they were of average size and were relatively easy keepers.Let us ignore the fact that keeping a horse standing still in a small stall for a year would be quite dangerous to it's health, as they need to move around to keep their guts working properly.Let us also ignore the muscle atrophy and depression and boredome which would also have detrimental effects.Let us also assume that we would not feed these horses grain, because anyone who feeds horses knows that confining a horse and feeding it lots of grain (high-powered) food is a prescription for life-threatening health problems (colic) and excitability and unruliness. Letting the horse roam on several acres (at least) of land and feeding it hay and grass (low-powered) food generally results in a much more sane, tractable, placid horse.Now that we have determined that Noah would need to take on a lot of hay to feed these horses, let's see if we can figure out how much these two horses would need.Well, if we are talking about a sedentary horse, and just wanting to get it to survive, not necessarily keeping it in good weight, I estimate, very conservatively, that you could get away with feeding the horses 15 pounds of hay a day, each. A bale of hay is something like 30 pounds.This means that Noah, just to feed two horses and no other herbivores on the Ark, would need nearly 11,000 pounds of hay for 365 days.Of course, this doesn't even account for the fresh water that would have to be stowed on board, as nobody could drink sea water and they couldn't collect enough rain in 40 days and 40 nights to last them the other 325 days.Horses drink about 6-10 gallons of water a day, so this makes the two horses' minimum fresh water requirements for the year at 4,380 gallons."

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This is what I believe that site proclaimed. This is what I got out of the Webster's New World Dictionary.

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evolution: 1 The gradual changes that take place as something develops into a different or more complicated form. 2 The theory that all plants and animals have developed from earlier forms by changes that took place over periods of many years and were passed on from one generation to the next.

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The Webster's dictionary definition is not a sufficient explanation of what scientists say evolution is and how they say it works. It is merely a dictionary definition and does not mention anything about mechanism.So, could you please try again?I would like a short-answer summary of what scientists say evolution is and how it works. I have provided you with several informative, science-based, easy-to-read sites as your source material.I am beginning to think that you have some issues with reading comprehension and this is why you are having a difficult time doing what I ask. Are you still in school?

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Where is the sample? If we evolved from a common ancestor, is my grandpa curious George? Seriously, is this what evolution is? Man evolved from other species? Man is man and ape is ape just like God said. Its very sad that man would put all there faith, hope and trust in man's opinions than the creator. The only one that was there in the past. The bible fits with history, not evolution.

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You are trying to argue again. FORGET ABOUT EVIDENCE FOR NOW.

Schrafinator,I am not a scientist but all I can say is that you can have a million PHD's. You will still not come close to the Lord God. We should praise Him for the beauty of His creation. Of course it has been corrupted by man. I cannot forget about the evidence. Is that not the most important thing? We were not there in the past. For over 2 years now I have believed in the beginning God. Because it is the only thing that makes sense. Not in the begininning the particles. Everything threw itself together? All evidence points to a creator. I have already explained to you what your page said. I have already said that evolution is not science but just an anti-God religion. I have to defrag my computer this evening. Tomorrow I will give evidence of the following topics. If you are interested please reply. Thank you.1)Why there has to be a creator God2)prophecy3)Young earth4)The bible5)Evolution6)And maybe a few other things

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Originally posted by drummachine:
I am not a scientist

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And yet you 'know' that evolution is false

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I have already said that evolution is not science but just an anti-God religion.

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really? i don't remember any mention of 'God' in the theory of evolution.

I am not asking for anything unreasonable here, Drum.All I am asking for is a short explanation, in your own words, of what scientists say evolution is, and how it works.I am not asking you to believe it.I am simply asking you to understand what scientists say Evolution is and how it works, so that we can then, at a later time, possibly have an intelligent discussion about the evidence found in nature and what it suggests.So far, you have only shown to me that you are unwilling or unable to learn, and that you have decided that 150 years of scientific investigation is utterly wrong even though you have no understanding of even the bare basics of the concept.Give me one good reason why I should engage in any kind of discussion about Evolution with you if I have no assurance whatsoever that you understand it?I do not believe that you have any interest in honest debate.

I am going to be busy today so hopefully tonight. I'm not trying to scoff at your belief and make you angry. I am trying to reason. I am iterested in majoring in science. I have known many wonderful people that are scientists who are Christians and who are not. I was taught evolution in school. I was taught we came from nothing. We die and we are nothing. Would you all please be willing to look at the creation side as well? If we are nothing but an "evolved animal" then I believe this statement is true from the bible, "Eat and drink and be merry. For tomorrow we die."

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I am going to be busy today so hopefully tonight. I'm not trying to scoff at your belief and make you angry.

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I don't actually care if you "scoff at my belief", and I am not angry.My "belief" in evolution is not a religious one, just as my "belief" that the pen that I drop will fall to the floor is not religious. I accept the evidence, in both cases, for evolution and for gravity.If pens strated floating in mid air, or falling up, I would have to change my understanding of gravity. This is the difference between religious belief and the acceptance of scientific evidence; the former does not change in the light of evidence, and the latter does.

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I am trying to reason.

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No, you aren't.You are holding tight to a preexisting belief and are making every effort to avoid learning anything which may run counter to your preexisting belief.

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I am iterested in majoring in science.

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You will get a big shock at university when you realize what you don't know because you have chosen to keep your religious blinkers on.

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I have known many wonderful people that are scientists who are Christians and who are not. I was taught evolution in school.

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Obviously you were taught very poorly.

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I was taught we came from nothing. We die and we are nothing.

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I seriously doubt that you were ever taught anthing remotely close to this in school.Tell me, did you go to a private Christian school where they "taught" evolution as bad and Creationism as good?

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Would you all please be willing to look at the creation side as well?

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You assume that we haven't. I have explored Creation science for 10 years or more and found it severely lacking in any evidenciary basis.

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If we are nothing but an "evolved animal" then I believe this statement is true from the bible, "Eat and drink and be merry. For tomorrow we die."

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The same Bible passage hold true if we are Born Again Christians who believe that they are going to heaven no matter what they do here on earth because they have been "saved".

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"Eat and drink and be merry. For tomorrow we die."

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How true. I suppose that is a downside to believing that you evolved from a speck of dust, but how could you fool yourself otherwise? There is some truth in the phrase 'Ignorance is bliss'. I sometimes wish that i had been born stupid, perhaps then I wouldn't have such a terrible fear of death. There is a fate worse than hell, and that is to cease to exist as if nothing ever happened.I envy a religious person who has not yet been exposed to the truth, they still have purpose in their lives [though perhaps misplaced]. For me, it is just as likely that God is evil as it is that God is good or that there is no God. The only thing that I know, is that I cannot know, or at least perhaps until after death which is why i believe in nothing.

So you have the truth now do you? How is you saying that any different from me saying that?Luckily I don't have to accept what you say is true just because you say it is.Man I've been waiting to turn that around on someone else.. ------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.