Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   rapture ready
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 128 (333021)
07-18-2006 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by macaroniandcheese
07-18-2006 1:23 PM


Re: Misconceptions
i dislike the very idea that someone's geneology, however minute, should guarantee them something that the rest of us have to work for or can never have. i thought we left behind inherited rights a long time ago?
Well, there is a little ambiguity as to what a Jew is. Technically, if only your mother was Jewish then her children would not be considered Jewish, at least not in Biblical times. Even today a Jew is considered either a Cohen or a Levy based on his/her father. Spritually, anyone can be a Jew if they convert to Judaism. But these are trite meanings for a who or what a person is.
and if anti-zionism is anti-semitism, what about all my anti-zionist jewish friends?
There are Americans who are anti-American but it doesn't invalidate their citizenship. The same could be said of your friends. But as I was saying to someone else, I'd guess we'd have to define what Zionism really is since the literal definition has been skewed by personal opinion.
for that i'd have to dislike jews. i don't i dislike the idiotic mentality that most american jews have of picking out one specific if faint ancestry to worship.
Do you not see the irony? If an Arabic man claimed he was an Arab, we'd have no problem with allowing to him to claim that. If an Asian woman claimed to be Asian, we'd have no problem with that. But claiming to be Jewish has this stigma attached to it, either for the Jew or the one to whom he/she is speaking to. If you're a Jew then you're a Jew. Who cares?
half of my family is scottish. it is reasonable to think of myself as a scot.
It would be reasonable to that, however, the gaps of dividing people by race are dwindling because everyone is intermingling. Its not that they couldn't do so biologically in the past, its just that physical barriers such as mountain ranges and oceans prohibited people from the type of intermingling we see today. Because of the separation, distinct features developed on people from various people groups. Now as technology advances, people can go all over the world in relative ease. And people are meeting other people from different races and they are now marrying and procreating. So now, its almost meaningless to define somebody as a "Scotsman" or a "Kenyan," other than, perhapsm where they claim citizenship. Does that make any sense, because I'm not sure I was able to get across the point i hoped for in my own mind.
i have a friend who i love dearly who is all of those things. but he thinks of himself as an israeli jew even though he's never been there nor has his family. and he has pale skin and dark red hair and nordo-russian features. it's stupid.
Yeah, that it is kinda dumb.
what happens to them on a daily basis? you mean in israel or here? cause let me tell you all the horible things that happen to jews on a daily basis in soflo.
Yeah, I know what you mean about the SoFlo crowd... Especially in the West Palm Beach area. Many of them are just secularized. Their Jewishness is almost like a tradition-thing than it is a spiritual thing. But no, I was referring to Israelis.
the jews do not believe in anything remotely resembling your messiah. they believe in a man, a real live non-divine man, who will sit on david's throne and unite the kingdom under the law of the lord.
I never claimed otherwise. This is precisely the reason why they didn't and don't believe that Jesus was their Moshiac. Well, some of them do. In fact, Jesus was crucified on the charge of blasphemy because He claimed to be God. You said that the Jews don't believe in any kind of Messiah.
and that's just the part of it. the jews have believed in many messiahs. and such there havebeen. they are temporary, temporal problem solvers. they fix very real anguish. now would be a perfect time for a jewish messiah. but not a christian one. they are not looking for the descent of god to men. they are not looking for the four corners to shake. they are not looking for the end of the earth.
I know. And that's precisely why they don't understand, yet. But like I said, they will, and they will understand and mourn for Him.
the jews are just as interested in having a monopoly on the holy land as the muslims are.
I think the Jews are interested in having their land, just like the French are interested in having their land, and the Tanzanians having theirs, and the Indonesians theirs.
i'm just the one person who dares to call the jews on their desires.
Uh, no, you're one of many.
it's no different than the christians. it's no different than the muslims. but the christians know their claim is weaker and they think if they help the jews they can sneak in every now and then.
Weaker? Why is their claim weaker? What does that even mean?
are you really so dense that you missed that idea? i wasn't saying that it was written in scripture that blah blah blah bullshit. i was saying that in order to aid the side of the jews politically in israel, the christians are funding "homeland moves". if they dillute the opposing vote with zionist voices, they stand a chance of bringing about the necessary changes like rebuilding the temple which is a JEWISH requirement for the messiah.
I thought we went over this already and you seemed to agree, that you can't force things to happen. You can't enact your own will to push God along. I mean seriously, who goes out there and says, "Come on guys, lets get ourselves raptured!"?
we can't. i didn't say it was logical or consistent, i said it was happening. these people thing that if they manouver, they can make stuff happen faster. they're stupid and mistaken, but that's not my fault.
In order for you to come to this conclusion about those whacky 'ole Christians, you at some point must have seen some talking about this or you must have read about it somewhere. Where did you come up with this theory that Christians are doing this?
i've read it. it's not talking about jesus. second time eh? the first time being out of egypt and the second time being the babylonian exile. they're not talking about the diaspora, they're talking about the exile.
Okay, lets read it again, except this time, I'll provide the whole chapter:
"Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch from his roots will bear fruit. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and strength, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. And He will delight in the fear of the LORD, and He will not judge by what His eyes see, nor make a decision by what His ears hear; But with righteousness He will judge the poor, and decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked. Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, And faithfulness the belt about His waist. And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them.
Also the cow and the bear will graze, their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox. The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea. Then in that day The nations will resort to the root of Jesse, who will stand as a signal for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious.
Then it will happen on that day that the Lord will again recover the second time with His hand the remnant of His people, who will remain, from Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea. And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth. Then the jealousy of Ephraim will depart, and those who harass Judah will be cut off; Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah, And Judah will not harass Ephraim. They will swoop down on the slopes of the Philistines on the west; Together they will plunder the sons of the east; They will possess Edom and Moab, And the sons of Ammon will be subject to them. And the LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt; And He will wave His hand over the river with His scorching wind; And He will strike it into seven streams And make {men} walk over dry-shod. And there will be a highway from Assyria For the remnant of His people who will be left, just as there was for Israel in the day that they came up out of the land of Egypt.
-Isaiah 11
This verse is Messianic and it describes how He will return for His remnant just like when delivered His people from captivity, i.e. from exile from all over the world. I mean, consider who is the "He," in this Scripture? Whoever the Messiah is, He does things that men cannot do. And to be sure:
"But you Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from old, from everlasting" -Micah 5:2
"For unto us, a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will upon His shoulder. And His Name will called, 'Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.' Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over his kingdom, to order it and estabish it with judgement and justice from that forward, even forever." -Isaiah 9:6-7
But many Jews have claimed that Jesus was not the Messiah. So Jesus speaks for Himself to the Chief Priests:
"While the Pharisees were gathered around, Jesus asked them, saying, 'What do you think about the Christ (Messiah)? Who's Son is He?' They said to Him, 'The son of David.' He said to them, 'How then does David in the Spirit call Him Lord, saying, 'The Lord said to my LORD, sit at My right hand, till I make your enemies a footstool.' If David then cals Him Lord, how can He be his son?' And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor did they dare to question Him anymore." -Matthew 22:41-46
that's all i'm saying. and the christians are dumbly trying to help them.
All the supplies for the new Temple are inside a warehouse, somewhere in Israel. The architecture has already been planned, the building materials, and they even thought that they had a blemish-free red heifer. Last I heard, the heifer was declared ritually unclean.
Page not found - Temple Institute
They are going to rebuild their Temple. However, no one can build anything until the Dome of the Rock is removed. So, I really don't know how Christians waiting for this to happens encompasses them helping to rebuild the Temple. The Temple hasn't been attempted to be rebuilt because that time has not yet passed. But when it does, it will be an event that will turn the entire world upside down.
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : add italics
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : No reason given.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-18-2006 1:23 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-18-2006 6:20 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 128 (333035)
07-18-2006 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by ramoss
07-18-2006 2:02 PM


Re: Misconceptions
quote:
You are aware that the majority of Jews do not believe that the Messiah is Jesus, right? That's kind of why their ancestors handed Him over to be crucified in the first place. Furthermore, its impossible for mean, ole Israel to kill all the Muslims without killing themselves, being that they are nestled in between thousands, upon thousands of Muslim occupied land.
By definition , Jews do not think that Jesus is the Messiah. If they think Jesus is the Messiah, they are, by definition, Christians, not jews.
I think you need to read what I wrote again.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by ramoss, posted 07-18-2006 2:02 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ramoss, posted 07-18-2006 6:48 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 128 (333039)
07-18-2006 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
07-18-2006 3:09 PM


Re: OT but maybe I can pull it back.
Oh really? If so then take it to one of the threads dealing with morality. But I will say NO ONE has ever been able to point to an absolute moral rule.
Okay. Then my point still stands. If there is no absolute morality then right and wrong is just an opinion, which makes my morality just as valid as yours. If that's the case, then you are no position to ever criticize anyone's version of morality. And lastly, you are no position to condemn anyone over their "opinion."
So much for relativism.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 07-18-2006 3:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 07-18-2006 8:03 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 128 (333040)
07-18-2006 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by macaroniandcheese
07-18-2006 5:18 PM


Bleak
i am a person. i am not anyone's "helpmeet". i am not a hole for a penis and an incubator for a child. i have had career aspirations since i was a very young child and i have never had any interest in even considering putting those aside to be someone's wife... i will not sit quietly nodding on the couch next to me brilliant and vocal fundy husband like so many christian wives. i get that from my mom. <3 wife
Nemesis_Juggernaut *starts a slow clap*
You don't actually think that's what married life is actually like, do you? That was so bleak. I wonder who your role models were.
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : No reason given.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-18-2006 5:18 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Discreet Label, posted 07-18-2006 8:32 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 93 by nator, posted 07-18-2006 9:42 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 80 of 128 (333053)
07-18-2006 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Hyroglyphx
07-18-2006 5:31 PM


Re: Misconceptions
Yeah, that it is kinda dumb.
that's all i'm saying. i'm simply stupified by all these blonde haired blue eyed or red haired pale skinned or what have you jews running around being all omg yay israel! just because they are connected to or follow a religion.
btw. arabs and israelis are the same people. abraham was an iraqi. the difference is ... oh wait i forgot.
Yeah, I know what you mean about the SoFlo crowd...
i drive a 10 year old car with almost 200k miles on it. i live paycheck to paycheck and i couldn't survive without my loans. i work everyday teaching little kids to swim. and every day i get run off the road by some crazy boca mom in a brand new hummer/lexus/bmw/mercedes/jaguar on the way to the mall because her husband works so shee can hire a maid and go shopping. i'm not saying that all jews are rich or anything... just most of boca is rich and most of boca is jewish. it's simply a statistical fact that in this case, i'm the oppressed one.
You said that the Jews don't believe in any kind of Messiah.
no i didn't, but whatever. i speak in specific contexts. it's not my fault you don't hear in context.
I think the Jews are interested in having their land
their land cause the british gave it to them? and how was did it come to belong to them? i seem to recall the bible saying that god kicked them out of the land because they stopped seeking after him alone. if israel really is a secular state, then they are not seeking after god and have no relgious right to be there. *waits for one of faith's natural disasters*
Weaker? Why is their claim weaker? What does that even mean?
because they don't have anything even resembling a native ancestral hoe type dealy. christians are an inumerable mass and there are so many different kinds that if they had control of jerusalem it would be an even bigger mess and everyone knows it.
I mean seriously, who goes out there and says, "Come on guys, lets get ourselves raptured!"?
*shrugs* people are shit nuts.
Where did you come up with this theory that Christians are doing this?
from the mouths of the dominionists.
They are going to rebuild their Temple. However, no one can build anything until the Dome of the Rock is removed. So, I really don't know how Christians waiting for this to happens encompasses them helping to rebuild the Temple. The Temple hasn't been attempted to be rebuilt because that time has not yet passed. But when it does, it will be an event that will turn the entire world upside down.
i told you. the christians are helping dillute the vote. don't you understand majority rule? if you reinforce the majority or change it, you change the course of the nation.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-18-2006 5:31 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-18-2006 8:38 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
Cthulhu
Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 273
From: Roe Dyelin
Joined: 09-09-2003


Message 81 of 128 (333060)
07-18-2006 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Hyroglyphx
07-18-2006 11:50 AM


Re: One of the greatest dangers facing mankind.
Let me get this straight: You are a Conservative Christian Republican who thinks Reagan is the worst President in US history, followed closely behind by Dubya,
Do us all a favor and look up the word "neoconservative".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-18-2006 11:50 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 82 of 128 (333061)
07-18-2006 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Hyroglyphx
07-18-2006 5:51 PM


Re: Misconceptions
I did. And I stand by my statement.
Not only that, but the story about Jews handle someone over to the Romans to be cruxified I think is just anti-semetic propaganda from early christians.
Edited by ramoss, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-18-2006 5:51 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-18-2006 8:46 PM ramoss has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 83 of 128 (333075)
07-18-2006 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Hyroglyphx
07-18-2006 5:55 PM


Way to far off topic but ...
Okay. Then my point still stands. If there is no absolute morality then right and wrong is just an opinion, which makes my morality just as valid as yours. If that's the case, then you are no position to ever criticize anyone's version of morality. And lastly, you are no position to condemn anyone over their "opinion."
So much for relativism.
When some one makes a statement that is that absurd, it has to at least be acknowledged.
Look NJ, that is simply patently false and if you really think for even a second that you can defend either what you posted above, or the existance of absolute morals, start a thread on it or stop insulting our intellegence with such nonsense.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-18-2006 5:55 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-18-2006 8:52 PM jar has not replied

  
Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 5063 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 84 of 128 (333082)
07-18-2006 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Hyroglyphx
07-18-2006 6:00 PM


Re: Bleak
Please I would ask you to either start a new thread requested posts 64, 69. Because at this time you are throwing around absolute moralites or relativism, and in either case, you have not explicitly stated what the absolute moralies are and neither have you demonstrated how your characterization of relativism is proper.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-18-2006 6:00 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-18-2006 10:19 PM Discreet Label has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 128 (333084)
07-18-2006 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by macaroniandcheese
07-18-2006 6:20 PM


Re: Misconceptions
btw. arabs and israelis are the same people. abraham was an iraqi. the difference is
Well, yes and no. He lived in the valley of Shinar which eventually became the Babylonian empire, which in turn is situated in modern-day Iraq. Abraham was the progenitor of both the Arabs and the Jews. Ishmael being traced to Arab lineage, and Isaac traced to the Jews. Isaac and Ishmael were half-brothers because polygamy was acceptable in those days.
i drive a 10 year old car with almost 200k miles on it. i live paycheck to paycheck and i couldn't survive without my loans. i work everyday teaching little kids to swim. and every day i get run off the road by some crazy boca mom in a brand new hummer/lexus/bmw/mercedes/jaguar on the way to the mall because her husband works so she can hire a maid and go shopping. i'm not saying that all jews are rich or anything... just most of boca is rich and most of boca is jewish. it's simply a statistical fact that in this case, i'm the oppressed one.
Oh, I'm right there with you. We pretty much live from paycheck to paycheck. At the same time, those people act that way because they're rich. Most of them wouldn't know what a hard days work is, or understand the value of a dollar. (Especially when its depreciating in value :mad When I lived in Miami, I had the "privalege , of going to a private school. It was lame. And there were a gazillion uber-rich Jews. But at the same time there were a gazillion uber-rich gentiles too, and Brazilians, and Cubans, and whatnot. The "J.A.P." concept isn't lost on me. And though I've been to Boca only a handful of times, but it didn't take very long to understand that its a haven for shallow-minded and materialistic people. Eh.... (*shrugs*) They might get backhanded by reality one day.
no i didn't, but whatever. i speak in specific contexts. it's not my fault you don't hear in context.
That's alright, my wife says I don't hear at all.... I'm sorry, did you say something?
their land cause the british gave it to them? and how was did it come to belong to them? i seem to recall the bible saying that god kicked them out of the land because they stopped seeking after him alone. if israel really is a secular state, then they are not seeking after god and have no relgious right to be there. *waits for one of faith's natural disasters*
Oh no, you're absolutely right. The dispersions were caused from their own hands in their apostacy, but God said that in the latter days that He would bring them back. I guess we could look at it in another context: If you imply that the Israelis, progeny of the Israelites, don't belong in Israel, then where are you going to send the millions of displaced families? I mean, on some level, what's done is done. Just like Native Americans can say that it was unfair what happened to them here, but it is what it is now. Where would 300 million people go? Know what I mean? The obvious solution is: GET ALONG. But diplomacy keeps on failing because there are always going to be instigators who fan the flames of discord.
because they don't have anything even resembling a native ancestral hoe type dealy. christians are an inumerable mass and there are so many different kinds that if they had control of jerusalem it would be an even bigger mess and everyone knows it.
I don't know of any Christians that want to take control of Jerusalem. If any did, it would be a lesson in futility according to their own Scriptures.
As far as there being so many denominations, yeah, its really quite silly. I'm non-denominational myself, but it seems that even that has connotations. A general rule of thumb between Christians is not to worry about the non-essentials because it will only cause division. And as Jesus said, "A house divided cannot stand."
*shrugs* people are shit nuts.
Can't argue that. And I should know
from the mouths of the dominionists.
I'm not familiar with that terminology. What is a "Dominionist?"
i told you. the christians are helping dillute the vote. don't you understand majority rule? if you reinforce the majority or change it, you change the course of the nation.
I don't understand what you mean by "diluting the vote." Are you referring to Christian Israeli's? I only ask because an American, Brittish, Australian, or any other Christian not an Israeli citizen can't vote in Israel.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-18-2006 6:20 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-18-2006 9:00 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 128 (333086)
07-18-2006 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ramoss
07-18-2006 6:48 PM


Re: Misconceptions
I did. And I stand by my statement.
Not only that, but the story about Jews handle someone over to the Romans to be cruxified I think is just anti-semetic propaganda from early christians.
Then how did the event in question get into the Babylonian Talmud if it was merely some early Christian propaganda?
"On the eve of Passover, Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Anyone who can say a word on his behalf, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of Passover."
Yeshu is the Hebrew name for the English rendering, "Jesus." It means, "Savior."

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ramoss, posted 07-18-2006 6:48 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by lfen, posted 07-18-2006 9:00 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 91 by lfen, posted 07-18-2006 9:02 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 92 by ramoss, posted 07-18-2006 9:15 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 102 by ReverendDG, posted 07-19-2006 2:41 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 128 (333088)
07-18-2006 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by jar
07-18-2006 8:03 PM


Re: Way to far off topic but ...
Look NJ, that is simply patently false and if you really think for even a second that you can defend either what you posted above, or the existance of absolute morals, start a thread on it or stop insulting our intellegence with such nonsense.
It isn't absurd. Its a very simple concept. And if it is, then explain why its absurd. Think about it for a moment. If there is not a moral standard, then right and wrong are completely subjective. If its subjective then its based upon all of our personal opinions. If its based on our opinions then nothing is ever wrong. So you can't ever claim that anything I say is ever wrong, just that you don't like my preference. Understand?
Why do I always have to start the threads? You have the problem with the concept, so you start it. I'll follow your lead.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 07-18-2006 8:03 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Coragyps, posted 07-18-2006 10:01 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 88 of 128 (333090)
07-18-2006 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Hyroglyphx
07-18-2006 12:25 PM


Re: Misconceptions
Exactly, but try explaining that to a peoples who just discredit the Bible. You point to Genesis 10 and they have no idea what its talking about. But you and I both know that its customary that Semites in modern terms it refers to Jews. But yes, Arabs come from the line of Shem as well.
even culturally and in secular terminology, semitic people are everyone from the middle east. there are semitic jews, and non-semitic (ashkenazi, ethiopian, south african, sephardic, etc) jews. there are semitic muslims, and non-semitic muslims (asian).
Yes, very true. And I'm fully aware that Israel has its fair share of nutbags too. And I don't support them in any way. Half of the time I don't agree with any of Israels political idealogies. They are a nation just as polarized on the issues as America.
yes. i'll i'm saying is that the radical contigent are generally called "zionists," and one can be against them without being against zion, true zionism, or israel. because, really, the zionist movement is technically over, now that israel is a state and has an official hebrew language. as a point of interest (and i don't mean this as a condemnation at all), original zionism also established the only working system of communism in the world, the kibutzim. modern zionism is a little more imperialistic, and it's the imperialism that people don't like -- not the zionism.
But really, don't you think this coddling of only Palestine is incredibly unfair?
depends. do you think american indians should be allowed to have casinos? palestine had the land for the better part of 2,000 years. israel moved in, relocated the palestinians, and continues to make their lives generally bad (example in a bit). i think they have some cause to be pissed, yes. but i think it's also ridiculous for them to blame all of their problems on israel. and their methods are to be despised. the problem, to me, is that radical contingents of both israel and palestine sound exactly the same.
I mean, the media has succesfully painted this picture that Israelis tromp through the streets like a bunch of Stormtroopers bent on destruction. It looks an awful lot like to me that they are are, you know, trying to exist. And certain special interest groups feel that they are unfit to exist. That's bs.
well, they do stomp through the streets, don't they? they consider it neccessary for their own protection, and so they have imposed a military state and essentially martial law on palestine, or at least the region that directly borders israel proper. since palestine is entirely contained within their official border, they can do whatever they'd like in their own country.
like build a wall down the middle of it. the wall sounds like a good idea, doesn't it? check everyone who's coming through, etc. i agree, sounds good. the problem is that it's not one wall -- it's a network of walls, designed to divide the west bank in such a way so as to interrupt the daily lives of most palestinians. there are stories about people having to take 12 mile detours to cross the street. they figure, if they can stop palestinians from moving around, they can stop communication of terrorists. and they might be right. ...but at what point does palestine become one giant ghetto? this is the same logic that relocated the japanese on the west coast of this country in ww2, and frankly, the same logic that spawned concentration camps for the jews. this is not a slippery slope we should be going down.
At what point should Israel fight back? They aren't randomly attacking civilians.
they're bombing a residential area in lebanon right now. yes, that's WHY hizballah is there -- instant martyrs.
I couldn't count on my fingers or toes how many times Israel has been attacked and has done nothing except sit on their hands. And the only reason they do so is because the US and UK implore them too. Because we all know what's going to happen. Now its happening.
yes. well, there has to be a better way.
I don't know you well enough to call you an anti-semite. You don't give me that impression. You seem like a reasonable man/woman, unlike some of the other counterparts who are more of the malicious, ad hom'ish type who seem incapable of being reasoned with.
well, thank you. (man, btw). and no, i am certainly not anti-semitic. and actually, brenna isn't either, i'll vouch for her. she's just, well, she's kind of an asshole sometimes. she should be more careful and word things better. she's gotten in trouble for it before, and will get in trouble for it again.
you also have to remember that most of the jews we go to school with are not israeli jews, or even semitic jews, but spoiled boca ("diaspora at its finest") jews, generally coming here from new york. and really, their crazy opinions on the israel/palestine conflict tend to be a little... well nuts, and out of touch. not that there aren't crazy people from israel too; there are, but they get more credit for their opinions.
And no, I don't expect you to swallow some radical Zionist notion. But we forget so quickly that these arguments are just a spin-off of Nazi propaganda. Its the same thing, different era. We're just waiting for the next Kristalnacht.
well, what i think you probably mistakenly implied is what i'm often saying -- nazism greatly affected the european jews, the ones who returned to their homeland after the war to establish the state of israel. they are damned fearful of anything like that ever happening again, and really i don't blame them. that should NEVER happen again. but the problem is that the things that many of the more zionist members say are basically the same arguments of nazism. the nazis rounded up and tried to destroy the jews because they viewed them as a threat to their society. all i'm saying is that racism is racism, and we should be careful of the consequences.
Well, I guess I would generally agree if only everyone was able to establish what "Zionism" actually means. Here is Dictionary.com's version. I happen to believe this is what Zionism really means and agree with it.
-isms evolved. for instance, i'm rather anti-feminist. not because i'm against womens' rights (which i am ALL for) but because feminism has diverged from this focus, and is now largely sexist postmodern bullshit. same deal with zionism. i can be against radical and racist zionism, but be all for the original intent of it.
The Jews are the only people to ever retain their entire, or nearly their entire, heritage, culture, religion, speech, etc afterbeing dispersed.
not true. i speak more hebrew than most jews i know, and i'm not jewish. yes, really, i am continually suprised by this myself. (what do they teach kids in hebrew school?) sephardic jews traditionally speak ladino or spanish, european and american jews english, ashkenazi tend to speak at least some yiddish, and ethiopians, um, whatever language they speak in ethiopia.
Jews and their faith are practically homologous.
most of the jews here are secular, and i know a fair portion of the ones in israel are too. "jewish" also works as a cultural definiton, not neccessarily a religious one. the traditions are closely to the culture, yes, and come from the religion -- but that doesn't mean that cultural and religious jews are practically the same group.
For instance, a good friend I grew up with is a liberal Jew. There are many of them. He's in that limbo between God or no God, but for the most part he is secular. I asked him if he observes Jewish traditions. He conceded that he does. To which I replied, "But surely you are aware that Jewish tradition and the Torah go hand in hand. What meaning does Passover have apart from its religious symbolism?" He understood what I meant.
i know a lot of athiests that celebrate christmas too.
The point I'm trying to make is, Jews are a very unique peoples. They just are, right or wrong. There is no one earth like, right or wrong. And to be a Jew in their repatriated homeland must be very exciting for them. Instead of scoffing and mocking them, why aren't people celebrating that?
well, they're not really that unique, they're actually a lot like most other cultures in the area in a great many ways -- but if i didn't feel they were special, i wouldn't be learning hebrew.
After the Diaspora, Israel was scortched. It wasn't fertile land that it once or that is coming back today.
well, not exactly. rome burned jerusalem. not all of israel. but maybe i missed that day in school. *shrug*
But it never became the flourishing country that it was during the times the Jews inhabited it.
traditionally, the jews were sheep-herders and nomads in their early days. you gotta start somewhere. can you fault the ancient people who inhabited the land after the diaspora for not immediately establishing an empire? they did, eventually, though, didn't they?
And they met resistence for one reason only.... the Dome of the Rock; the 3rd most holy site in Islam. Ever since then its been escalating into the disaster that it is today.
i don't think that's the only site holy to islam in israel. i could be wrong, i don't know a whole lot about islam.
The reason is the Palestinians? What of the Palestinians? They've always been there!
actually, i should mention something somewhat ironic. deuteronomy and joshua mention driving the philistines/palestinians out of the promised land, and depict israel conquering them. but by all archaeological evidence available, it looks like the exodus and conquest of the holy land never actually happened -- the jews were really there first. all evidence regarding the philistines is that they moved to the area (from cyprus, iirc) well after joshua would have happened. i'm not sure how this affects claims to the land 2,500 years later. it doesn't seem to lend support either way.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-18-2006 12:25 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-18-2006 11:12 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 89 of 128 (333094)
07-18-2006 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Hyroglyphx
07-18-2006 8:46 PM


Re: Misconceptions
Your citation is incomplete. You neglect to say which translation of the Babylonian Talmud you are quoting from and where exactly the quoted material is to be found.
Please remedy this, otherwise there is no point in further discussion.
lfen
Edited by lfen, : misspelled "citation" and corrected spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-18-2006 8:46 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 90 of 128 (333095)
07-18-2006 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Hyroglyphx
07-18-2006 8:38 PM


Re: Misconceptions
Oh no, you're absolutely right. The dispersions were caused from their own hands in their apostacy, but God said that in the latter days that He would bring them back. I guess we could look at it in another context: If you imply that the Israelis, progeny of the Israelites, don't belong in Israel, then where are you going to send the millions of displaced families? I mean, on some level, what's done is done. Just like Native Americans can say that it was unfair what happened to them here, but it is what it is now. Where would 300 million people go? Know what I mean? The obvious solution is: GET ALONG. But diplomacy keeps on failing because there are always going to be instigators who fan the flames of discord.
i have never suggested that israel should be overrun. i may or may not believe it should be there, but whatever. yes, what's done is done. but it is both sides fanning the flames and israel and all the jews around the world go "nuh uh! wasn't me!" so pissy and irritating.
What is a "Dominionist?"
Dominion theology - Wikipedia
generally, i'm referring to theocratic dominionists... they also tend to be pre-millenial dispensationalists. and they're quite scary. they're convinced that the end is upon us and are doing their very best to rush it by according the nation to "god's laws" and destroying the environment and such rot.
I don't understand what you mean by "diluting the vote." Are you referring to Christian Israeli's? I only ask because an American, Brittish, Australian, or any other Christian not an Israeli citizen can't vote in Israel.
ok. i'll say it more carefully.
there are jews living in israel. there are muslims living in israel. there are christians living in israel. there are secularists living in israel. they all have a vote. if you fly in more jews (who are guaranteed citizenship for some ungodly un-democratic reason) then they have a vote too and you thus have more jewish votes and a smaller percentage to each of the others.
that's what i mean by dilluting the vote.
and, assuming all jews vote the same way (which is a big assumption for israelis, but not for americans) then you have significantly affected public policy. and this is what they're doing. and if they get enough votes to overrule the rest (particularly muslims and peacenicks) then god only knows how quickly the rest could just fall apart.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-18-2006 8:38 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024