Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,816 Year: 3,073/9,624 Month: 918/1,588 Week: 101/223 Day: 12/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Atheism, a dangerous idea?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 226 of 241 (332810)
07-18-2006 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by riVeRraT
07-18-2006 6:15 AM


Re: One thing at a time.
Please provide an example of absolute morality of an atheist.
There are none riVeRraT just as there are none for the Christian.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by riVeRraT, posted 07-18-2006 6:15 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 227 of 241 (332850)
07-18-2006 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by riVeRraT
07-18-2006 6:15 AM


Christian morality discussion as related to OP
riVeRrat writes:
This is not a thread about Christian morality, it is about whether atheism is a dangerous idea or not.
If I provide an example, we will no doubt debate it, hence proving my point.
Please provide an example of absolute morality of an atheist.
Let me explain what I am driving at.
There is much discussion among fundamentalist Christians about the lack of an absolute moral guidance without God. You even seem to hint at this being a problem in your comments about the athiest moral foundation. Most of the fundamentalist with whom I am aquainted, are quite vocal about the problems with the United States that are caused by this relativistic world view. Subjective morals are considered the cause of the current breakdown of society. If any of them answered the OP, this subjective set of morals would be the danger that they believe athiest thinking presents to society.
Despite the fact that you deny saying subjective morals are a danger, your comments indicate that you have a problem with them.
So, my question concerning the degree to which Biblical morals are absolute has a direct bearing on whether subjective morals can be presented as a danger. That is why I wanted to know what Biblical moral laws you considered absolute and your reasoning for catagorizing them as absolute.
Perhaps you are not the best fundamentalist to address this question since you have not really made any statements concerning your commitment to any particular stand on these issues.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by riVeRraT, posted 07-18-2006 6:15 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by riVeRraT, posted 07-19-2006 6:16 AM LinearAq has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 228 of 241 (333213)
07-19-2006 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by jar
07-18-2006 8:56 AM


Re: Implication of superiority
And on several posts I supplied some examples Rat.
None of it is a standard, they acn choose what to follow, and what not to follow, and make up anything they want along the way. That is my point for the last time.
Instead, they are concerned about morality, ethics, society in a way that few theists can even comprehend.
That is not a 100% statement there. They are not of one accord, and their morality is subjective to what ever they wish to believe in.
Immediatly someone will take that statement as being negative again, I am sure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by jar, posted 07-18-2006 8:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 07-19-2006 7:42 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 234 by jar, posted 07-19-2006 8:49 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 229 of 241 (333214)
07-19-2006 6:16 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by LinearAq
07-18-2006 10:40 AM


Re: Christian morality discussion as related to OP
You even seem to hint at this being a problem in your comments about the athiest moral foundation.
I never said it was a problem, I said it is what scares Christians.
No God= no rules. Man becomes God.
Despite the fact that you deny saying subjective morals are a danger, your comments indicate that you have a problem with them.
Subjective morals are a danger, for both religious, and non-religious.
Perhaps you are not the best fundamentalist
Perhaps I am not a fundamentalist.
!@$#!#^$!@#$%
Every Christian is not a fundamentalist.
Please explain why you think that I am.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by LinearAq, posted 07-18-2006 10:40 AM LinearAq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Jaderis, posted 07-19-2006 6:47 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 233 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 07-19-2006 7:59 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 4493 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 230 of 241 (333215)
07-19-2006 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by riVeRraT
07-18-2006 6:15 AM


Re: One thing at a time.
[qs]Please provide an example of absolute morality of an atheist.[\qs]
no atheist will kill , make war , presecute , defame , disfranshise , exclude , another person because of their religious view .
a atheist will chosse to do the right thing for no other reason than it is the right thing , this choice will not be tainted by any practice , dogma , ritual , or creed .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by riVeRraT, posted 07-18-2006 6:15 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by riVeRraT, posted 07-20-2006 8:07 AM ikabod has not replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 231 of 241 (333218)
07-19-2006 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by riVeRraT
07-19-2006 6:16 AM


Re: Christian morality discussion as related to OP
Subjective morals are a danger, for both religious, and non-religious
Yes, they are indeed very dangerous considering the state of the world for the last several millenia. So let's all just agree on one set and be done with it all. Now, whose shall we agree on, yours, mine or bob's?
What was that? "God's" you say? Well, now we have to agree on what exactly God's morals are.
You can start the list.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by riVeRraT, posted 07-19-2006 6:16 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5834 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 232 of 241 (333233)
07-19-2006 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by riVeRraT
07-19-2006 6:13 AM


Re: Implication of superiority
That is not a 100% statement there. They are not of one accord, and their morality is subjective to what ever they wish to believe in.
RR, you are correct here.
Atheist is a much more narrow term than "christian" or "jew".
Atheists simply lack belief in god. They might have a strict moral code or no moral code at all.
Atheism actually has very little if anything to do with morality (other than an atheist would not believe something is right or wrong simply because god x or gods y and z said so).
Heck, there's no reason an atheist can't adopt christian or jewish moral teachings if he/she thinks they are valuable

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by riVeRraT, posted 07-19-2006 6:13 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by riVeRraT, posted 07-20-2006 8:12 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5834 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 233 of 241 (333238)
07-19-2006 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by riVeRraT
07-19-2006 6:16 AM


Re: Christian morality discussion as related to OP
Subjective morals are a danger, for both religious, and non-religious.
All morals are subjective and all morality is relative.
I think we've been over this several times and no one has ever provided an example of an absolute moral.
(if you have one discreet_label just started a new thread were we can discuss it!)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by riVeRraT, posted 07-19-2006 6:16 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 234 of 241 (333247)
07-19-2006 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by riVeRraT
07-19-2006 6:13 AM


Re: Implication of superiority
None of it is a standard, they acn choose what to follow, and what not to follow, and make up anything they want along the way. That is my point for the last time.
And my response is that that is also true for the Christian.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by riVeRraT, posted 07-19-2006 6:13 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5834 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 235 of 241 (333249)
07-19-2006 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Alan Fox
07-01-2006 9:10 AM


America
Sadly, America has become in large part a nation with very few critical thinkers. Religion is one of the main tools used by the elite to control the masses and direct their thoughts and opinions (as religion has often been used throughout history). Atheism of course threatens the power structure established by the far right and corporate interests because it generally involves questioning and critical thinking.
Americans are brainwashed from a young age to think atheism = bad. Since most Americans either can't or choose not to think critically this brainwashing sticks.
However, it's really just the word atheism more than anything else. People here in America think it's just fine to be "non-religious" (even though it often means the same thing as atheist) and a huge percentage of the population identifies that way.
It's really just a poisoning of the term atheist (sort of like the way the word "liberal" has been poisoned)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Alan Fox, posted 07-01-2006 9:10 AM Alan Fox has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by dogrelata, posted 08-07-2006 8:03 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 236 of 241 (333641)
07-20-2006 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by ikabod
07-19-2006 6:37 AM


Re: One thing at a time.
no atheist will kill , make war , presecute , defame , disfranshise , exclude , another person because of their religious view .
Cute, but that is not a moral.
a atheist will chosse to do the right thing for no other reason than it is the right thing , this choice will not be tainted by any practice , dogma , ritual , or creed .
Good luck proving that one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by ikabod, posted 07-19-2006 6:37 AM ikabod has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 237 of 241 (333643)
07-20-2006 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
07-19-2006 7:42 AM


Re: Implication of superiority
Thank you for that reply, I think maybe your the first one to get it.
It was such a simple concept, and true, and maybe what scares Christians about atheism.
Then everyone started jumping up and down about why we should be scared of Christianity, when that is not the topic of the thread.
Christianity has many things to be scared of, and I am probably more scared of Christianity, and religion, than atheism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 07-19-2006 7:42 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by LinearAq, posted 07-20-2006 8:24 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 238 of 241 (333646)
07-20-2006 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by riVeRraT
07-20-2006 8:12 AM


Re: Implication of superiority
First, I apologize for the fundamentalist label I used earlier. I knew you were not a fundamentalist but had a cognitive disconnect there.
Then everyone started jumping up and down about why we should be scared of Christianity, when that is not the topic of the thread.
I missed the part where anyone said we should be scared of Christianity. My reason for pointing out the subjectiveness of the Christian morals was to refute the statement that the subjective morals of athiests made their ideals dangerous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by riVeRraT, posted 07-20-2006 8:12 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by riVeRraT, posted 07-20-2006 8:32 AM LinearAq has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 239 of 241 (333652)
07-20-2006 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by LinearAq
07-20-2006 8:24 AM


Re: Implication of superiority
My reason for pointing out the subjectiveness of the Christian morals was to refute the statement that the subjective morals of athiests made their ideals dangerous.
I never said it was dangerous, I said it is possible that it scares Christians. Whether that is hypocritical or not, is irrelavant.
It is just funny how the conversation went from there. Very defensive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by LinearAq, posted 07-20-2006 8:24 AM LinearAq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by nator, posted 08-07-2006 8:36 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5312 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 240 of 241 (338346)
08-07-2006 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
07-19-2006 9:09 AM


Re: America
Americans are brainwashed from a young age to think atheism = bad.
Sadly this is not just the case in America. A few years ago a work colleague, who has since gone on to enter the ministry, started a discussion on religion. Even though we had known each other for some years, this had never previously been a subject of conversation. It became obvious fairly quickly that it was assumed that I was a Christian also, so I informed him of my atheism. His reponse was that I couldn't be an atheist because he considered me to be a 'good person'.
I was a little saddened by this, and could only wonder what his religion was teaching him about the world and those inhabiting it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 07-19-2006 9:09 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024