Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 76 (8908 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 05-20-2019 9:33 PM
24 online now:
DrJones*, Tanypteryx (2 members, 22 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WeloTemo
Happy Birthday: Percy
Post Volume:
Total: 851,666 Year: 6,703/19,786 Month: 1,244/1,581 Week: 66/393 Day: 49/17 Hour: 0/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev123
4
Author Topic:   Do animals have souls?
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 3987 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 217 of 303 (330849)
07-11-2006 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by ramoss
07-11-2006 11:12 AM


Can you give me any reason to 'reject' that as evidence?

Evidence of (what) is the question.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by ramoss, posted 07-11-2006 11:12 AM ramoss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by ramoss, posted 07-11-2006 3:38 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not yet responded

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 3987 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 219 of 303 (330864)
07-11-2006 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by kalimero
07-11-2006 3:18 PM


[/qs]BTW: try not using the "thats your opinion" arguement in every post, instead try to give the logic behind whatever it is you believe.[/qs]

I call em as I see em. You simply do not agree. It is not your belief. I understand that. You simply wish to deny it. That is your choice. :)

Maybe you should read the whole sentence...

does not nessesarily mean that it doesnt represent some sort of probable reality.

It also does not mean that it does and certainly not excusively your view of a probable reality. ;)
Gosh that sounds like an arguement for the existance of God. :P


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by kalimero, posted 07-11-2006 3:18 PM kalimero has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by kalimero, posted 07-11-2006 4:37 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not yet responded

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 3987 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 234 of 303 (331370)
07-13-2006 4:18 AM


I have maintainted this for some time now.
This thread is answered by belief only.
Relying on science to answer all questions is a belief that all things will be answered by science. It is dogma/faith in that all things are physical. There is no way around that. Many here continually wish to argue that a belief that all things are physical is not a belief. All scientific research is limited to all things physical. that is it's nature.
Science will not give me:

a reason to live.
a reason to love
faith In people.
Hope of any kind.

Science will not help me:
Love anything or anyone
Be a better person
Understand what it means to share

In fact for all the things that truly matter in life science is absolutely useless. I understand this.

In this thread it is no more authorative than any other belief.
Still people seem to cling to this belief.
When will they learn. :)


Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by kalimero, posted 07-13-2006 10:57 AM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 3987 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 244 of 303 (331718)
07-14-2006 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by kalimero
07-13-2006 10:57 AM


How about making up your own goals for once?

A reason to live and a goal have nothing in common to me.

Empathic behavior is esential in social animals such as our selves.

Says who? We function quite well biologically without it. We do not die.

so are inter-personal bonds

Says who? Again we function quite well biologically without them.

I would say the ability to imagine a posible future gives alot of hope. (a trait not unique to humans BTW)

Science does not give us an ability to imagine. We already have that.
That is how the idea of science emerged in the first place.

The manufacturers of Flutine would disagree.

Of course they would. What better money maker?

You dont see how science can help people?!?
How about...umm...I dont know...medicine?

Science does not help people. People help people.

Thats just sad.

This is because you believe completely in science. It is where you have placed your faith.

Your just going to assert that? Is that your whole arguement?

It is self evident. Science is your religion. It is for many. You simply choose to ignore the fact.

And YOU are going to teach us? Try providing evidence first.

Hell no! :P Thats not my job! ;) It is for you to choose to see or not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by kalimero, posted 07-13-2006 10:57 AM kalimero has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by kalimero, posted 07-16-2006 8:06 AM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 3987 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 246 of 303 (332860)
07-18-2006 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by kalimero
07-16-2006 8:06 AM


Whats so hard to understand, making goals for yourself and trying to achieve gives you a reason to live (and a good one too).

Really? One must want to achieve for reasons. Within a simple goal lies a host of motivations. Without these basic motives a goal is not even possible. The reasons to live derive from the core motivations. The core motivations are the reasons goals are made and therfore the reason or reasons to live. If a goal ceases to be fun, enjoyable or rewarding in any sense it ceases to be a reason. A goal is simply a vehicle to experience the true reasons to live.

Not so. Our mental and physical health is dependent - especialy at a young age - on empathy.

This is not true. "Mental health" is a very subjective idea. We would simply function under different circumstances. We are quite adaptable you know. The concept of Empathy is non essential to our existance.

Young children aquire an understanding of normal social behavior through inter-personal bonds, without them it would be very hard to function.

Hard to function? By who's definition? It is not needed behaviour. What is normal changes like the wind and is completely subjective.
As I said we are very adaptable.

Science doesnt give us anything - science is a tool

Exactly :)

it enables us to use our abilities for the best

This assumes science has some ability to bring out the best. This is your opinion/belief. It is a false assumption. Science has no qualities. We are the possessor of qualities and we express them through tools.

The fact is that alot of people have anxiety problems that dont let them express feelings and be 'open', and this drug helps those people solve thier problem.

Far better to achieve it by will.

Science is a tool. People help people better with science.

So the tool gaurantees a better outcome? For a reasonable inteligent person you endow a tool with some interesting innate abilities.

Bullshit. If you dont think science can help ("science is absolutely useless") you wouldnt have used a computer.

I never said science was useless. This is your knee-jerk reaction in defense of your belief

It's self evident that science is useless? care to elaborate?
Science is self correcting by nature (peer review, double blind test exc.), how exactly is that a religion.

The concept of science itself is not. The nature of your belief in it makes this so. You define your existance with it.

Your right its hard to see the purpose in science with all those facts in the way!

Again you are giving qualities to a tool. Science has no purpose. We use it for a purpose. The value of that purpose is completely subjective.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by kalimero, posted 07-16-2006 8:06 AM kalimero has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by ramoss, posted 07-18-2006 12:05 PM 2ice_baked_taters has responded
 Message 248 by kalimero, posted 07-18-2006 2:50 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not yet responded

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 3987 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 250 of 303 (333304)
07-19-2006 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by ramoss
07-18-2006 12:05 PM


The soul according to many religious and philosophical traditions, is the ethereal substance — spirit (Hebrew:rooah or nefesh) — particular to a unique living being. Such traditions often consider the soul both immortal and innately aware of its immortal nature, as well as the true basis for sentience in each living being.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul

The soul is an immortal and spiritual body of light, the essence of which is Satchidananda and Parasivam, eternal, uncreated and identical with God Siva. The soul animates life and reincarnates again and again until all necessary karmas are created and resolved and its essential unity with God Siva is realized. The soul is the atman of the Vedas.
www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/virtue/SVGlossary.html

The spiritual life force or essence, carrying an individual's personality and consciousness of all actions.
www.wrexhamparaskeptics.4t.com/definitions.htm

There are many sources of basically similar definitions through out the world.The definitions themselves describe something that has no measurable aspect. You cannot see a thought. The fact that we are, and are interacting at this very moment is self evident. How we mechanically achieve this is imaterial...(hehe) I said imaterial ;P. All science will ever achieve
is to give us a measurement of some aspect of change of momentum over time that the soul caused. Our tracks if you will. The soul is a basic definition that describes the cause of what science detects. We still have no idea what a force really is either. The change of momentum with respect to time is a measurable way of describing a phenomenon. It is very usefull for achieving things in a very limited fashion. Facts derived from this mode of thinking do not define the phenomenon and only a fool would follow such folly.They descibe it in one way. You can mechanicaly describe all that I am and all you will ever have is a mechanical description.
Something mechanical is not animate as we define ourselves. If you wish to define yourself soley by the narrow view that science offers that is your choice of belief. I love how people who think of science as more than the tool it is, attemt to push scientific dogma upon things where it does not apply and when faced with the fact that everything we do is based upon belief and point of view they get all riled up and claim foul. The very basis for this sight is a prime example. The basis of creationism is spiritual and creationism is only one small part of that picture.. The basis of evolution is not spitual. Two very different animals that have nothing in common. To look at something from only one direction will only give you one view.
The mechanics of this life can be useful but are just the vehicle.
Evidence provide thus far is not the problem. The question is evidence of what. Someone elses interpretation is not mine. Very subjective.
Again, this forum topic has been misplaced.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by ramoss, posted 07-18-2006 12:05 PM ramoss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by ramoss, posted 07-19-2006 1:02 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not yet responded

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 3987 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 257 of 303 (334142)
07-21-2006 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by New Cat's Eye
07-20-2006 4:05 PM


Limiting yourself to that which is scientifically observable could limit the truths you discover, IMHO.

I agree with this completely. It is the limiting that is called belief.
It is why I maintain that science serves as a religion for many.

I maintain that this question is misplaced. It is a philosophical question.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-20-2006 4:05 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by kalimero, posted 07-22-2006 12:13 PM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 3987 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 260 of 303 (335563)
07-26-2006 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by kalimero
07-22-2006 12:13 PM


[qs]do you have any evidence of something that is outside science.

Exactly what do you mean by outside?

I have already told you why its not a religion

As I have stated why it is.

Can you specify what question you are talking about?
If its "Do animals have souls?" then its trying to answer a scientific question and is therefore placed correctly in the science forum.

Please explain the scientific nature of the question.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by kalimero, posted 07-22-2006 12:13 PM kalimero has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by ramoss, posted 07-26-2006 8:45 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not yet responded
 Message 262 by kalimero, posted 07-27-2006 1:15 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not yet responded

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 3987 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 269 of 303 (337138)
08-01-2006 3:08 AM


I am still amazed that this thread had been allowed to carry on.
As a scientific question this topic is a dead end since it is not a scientificly based question. Science is a useless tool for this job. If you insist on using science to determine an answer it is your religion. That is a no brainer.
Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by kalimero, posted 08-01-2006 6:13 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not yet responded

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 3987 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 279 of 303 (338363)
08-07-2006 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by kalimero
08-05-2006 3:05 PM


Why do you think that? Why is religion excluded from logical scrutiny?

If I may,
Logic has it's place. Logic applied where it has no meaning sucks the life out of that which brings joy.

I do not:
listen to or create music using logic.
decide to put burgundy in my home made spagetti with logic.
watch the clouds roll by and imagine what they look like with logic.
Logic is for the practical.
Joy is for living. Religion brings many people joy.
A life without logic is do-able
A life without joy is no life at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by kalimero, posted 08-05-2006 3:05 PM kalimero has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by nator, posted 08-07-2006 11:26 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not yet responded
 Message 282 by kalimero, posted 08-07-2006 2:02 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not yet responded

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 3987 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 294 of 303 (338905)
08-10-2006 8:54 AM


I find it quite interesting how often debates in this forum turn into a discussion on the validity of religion and or a belief in a higher power. It's like people are trying very hard to understand logically how faith works. Of course the how is not important. It is only the why that matters.
Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by kalimero, posted 08-10-2006 10:18 AM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 3987 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 296 of 303 (348001)
09-10-2006 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by kalimero
08-10-2006 10:18 AM


I think 'authoritative' assertions like that are what drive us to debate the debate.

On the contrary. To you it is mainly the "how" of things that matter. To me and others like me it is only the "why" that really matters. Your view is very narrow and self limiting. You believe you are a happening that will pass. There is no why. This is not my view.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by kalimero, posted 08-10-2006 10:18 AM kalimero has not yet responded

Prev123
4
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019