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Author Topic:   Iran hangs 16 year old girl: Sharia at work.
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 31 of 61 (335576)
07-26-2006 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by CK
07-26-2006 4:41 PM


Here is a link that mentions the radio program.
Sucuri WebSite Firewall - Access Denied
Kinzer's All The Shah's Men details how the British wanted to over throw the progressive democratic government in Iran because it nationalized their oil fields. They were going to follow the same procedures that England was using in England.
The CIA did it and installed the brutal regime of the Shah. The country was set back, hatred against the Shah led to the power of the Mullah's and the kind of disgusting government we now find complete with the unfortunately well earned hatred of the West. I blame England and US colonialism for that girls death and the horrible government and condition of Iran. The evils of colonialism have created this and the greedy callous people who did this should be held accountable.
lfen

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mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 32 of 61 (335577)
07-26-2006 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by lfen
07-26-2006 8:49 PM


Ifen writes:
I am utterly disgusted by the double standard. It's okay if we do it for the profit of a few but wrong when our frustrated victims strike out from insane governments that resulted from our colonial meddling.
It's not a double standard. The rule is:
Political and economic power give the right to kill and torture, for profit.
There's no double standard there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by lfen, posted 07-26-2006 8:49 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by lfen, posted 07-26-2006 10:47 PM mick has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 33 of 61 (335590)
07-26-2006 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by mick
07-26-2006 9:16 PM


Realpolitik
Realpolitik. At least Kissinger was relatively honest in comparison to these neo cons.
lfen

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mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 34 of 61 (335601)
07-26-2006 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by lfen
07-26-2006 10:47 PM


Re: Realpolitik
Ifen writes:
Realpolitik. At least Kissinger was relatively honest in comparison to these neo cons.
In my view, the neocons are overtly fascist. The problem for you and I is that few in positions of political authority care. They simply do not give a fuck.
Edited by mick, : No reason given.

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 35 of 61 (335616)
07-27-2006 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by randman
07-26-2006 5:19 PM


Re: Old Testament
But I think it's clear what is going on. You guys hate Christianity so much you won't admit unequivocally that what occurs in iran is wrong, but have to try to falsely smear Christianity, suggesting wrongly that Christianity and Christians support stoning 16 year old girls.
Sort of sucks when someone refuses to talk about the topic you brought up and instead tries to distract by bringing up irrelevant counterexamples doesn't it?
Edited by Jazzns, : Added rand's quote.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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Replies to this message:
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 36 of 61 (335628)
07-27-2006 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by iano
07-26-2006 7:19 PM


Re: Old Testament
iaon writes:
There is one reason for being saved. God saved you. And one reason to 'burn in Hell' - your rejection of his attempts to save you.
God "saved" us from what? You keep skirting around what one actually has to do to go to hell.
Would faith in Allah count as a "rejection"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by iano, posted 07-26-2006 7:19 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 37 of 61 (335632)
07-27-2006 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Jazzns
07-27-2006 1:01 AM


Re: Old Testament
Jazzns,
Sort of sucks when someone refuses to talk about the topic you brought up and instead tries to distract by bringing up irrelevant counterexamples doesn't it?
I'm not refusing to talk about the topic, it just seems hypocritical that what the Koran calls for is wrong, but similar in the bible gets conveniently brushed aside.
Exposing double standards is not irrelevant.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Jazzns, posted 07-27-2006 1:01 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 38 of 61 (335635)
07-27-2006 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by randman
07-26-2006 5:19 PM


Re: Old Testament
randman writes:
But I think it's clear what is going on. You guys hate Christianity so much you won't admit unequivocally that what occurs in iran is wrong, but have to try to falsely smear Christianity, suggesting wrongly that Christianity and Christians support stoning 16 year old girls.
No, it's clear to everyone here that you aren't in the least interested in condemning the religious extremism of the Iranian regime, you are simply out to "prove" that Islam is inherently barbaric.

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MUTTY6969
Member (Idle past 6190 days)
Posts: 65
From: ARIZONA
Joined: 05-20-2006


Message 39 of 61 (335638)
07-27-2006 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by iano
07-26-2006 7:19 PM


Re: Old Testament
iano writes:
You can be absolutest about his existance (for it is possible to know he exists). You cannot be so about his non-existance (at least according to the best athiest views around here.)
So one can be absolute about the existence of god, but not absolute that god does not exist...but you are absolute that Allah does not exist.
iano writes:
p.s. Allah doesn't exist
How does that work?

You wanna be, uhh, blunt about what has taken place, sometimes when you don't measure, you just shuffle kids through. Then you wake up at the high school level and find out that the illiter -- literacy level of our children are appalling.
-- It sure are, Mr. Bush, it sure are... not to mention adults, Washington, D.C., Jan. 23, 2004

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 Message 25 by iano, posted 07-26-2006 7:19 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by iano, posted 07-27-2006 6:08 AM MUTTY6969 has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 40 of 61 (335643)
07-27-2006 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by lfen
07-26-2006 8:58 PM


Re: Old Testament
You are being disgusting! God said no such thing. The laws were attributed to God. So who is right? Traditions from an early patriarchal legal system or Mark 24, or the Buddha, or you, or me.
I say you are wrong and you aren't God. You are an ego. As an intelligent ego you really could know better.
The wrath of God is either terrifyingly frightful or it isn't. If he exists (a nod to your position only - there is no if) and one of his attributes is as described - then it is not ego which speaks but simply someone conveying a basic truth that HE revealed to them. Neither is there anything egotistical about saying that this truth was conveyed to me - anyone can have God convey truth to them - I'm not special (not that it would be egotistical to state it were that the case: God assigned apostles who were 'special' and prophets who were 'special' If you had a beef about it you would have to take it up with him. He assigned it).
If he doesn't in fact exist then I am simply wrong but speaking as a person who is totally convinced by the evidence which allows me to conclude that he does exist - but has somehow miscontrued the evidence. That is not ego. That is a mistake.
But I don't have to admit to the possibility of been mistaken no more that I have to admit the possibility that this computer screen in front of me doesn't exist. There is nothing egotistical in saying I cannot be wrong in the case of my computer screen. That I cannot be wrong about Gods existance falls into the same category.
You don't have to be God to know God Lfen.
(in case you read this Schraf, lets not go down the route of "no empirical evidence = you may be wrong" again shall we not?)

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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 41 of 61 (335644)
07-27-2006 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by MUTTY6969
07-27-2006 5:45 AM


Re: Old Testament
So one can be absolute about the existence of god, but not absolute that god does not exist...but you are absolute that Allah does not exist.
Its simple logic: there cannot be two almighty gods. Thus, if God then no Allah. And seeing as I know God exists I therefore know Allah (and all the rest of them) doesn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by MUTTY6969, posted 07-27-2006 5:45 AM MUTTY6969 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by MUTTY6969, posted 07-27-2006 6:46 AM iano has replied
 Message 45 by mark24, posted 07-27-2006 7:50 AM iano has replied
 Message 57 by lfen, posted 07-27-2006 11:38 AM iano has not replied

  
MUTTY6969
Member (Idle past 6190 days)
Posts: 65
From: ARIZONA
Joined: 05-20-2006


Message 42 of 61 (335651)
07-27-2006 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by iano
07-27-2006 6:08 AM


Re: Old Testament
Why the double standard? You continually ridicule people on this forum for that same thing, If one says that they do not believe in god then you tell them yes they do they are just ignoring him and will see the light one day it just may be too late. But you are saying you absolutely can say there is no Allah, and I am saying there is absolutely no way there is a god, do you have special insight?

You wanna be, uhh, blunt about what has taken place, sometimes when you don't measure, you just shuffle kids through. Then you wake up at the high school level and find out that the illiter -- literacy level of our children are appalling.
-- It sure are, Mr. Bush, it sure are... not to mention adults, Washington, D.C., Jan. 23, 2004

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by iano, posted 07-27-2006 6:08 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by iano, posted 07-27-2006 7:46 AM MUTTY6969 has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 43 of 61 (335659)
07-27-2006 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by RickJB
07-27-2006 3:13 AM


Re: Old Testament
iano writes:
There is one reason for being saved (if you are saved). God saved you. And one reason to 'burn in Hell' (if you 'burn in Hell') - your rejection of his attempts to save you.
Rick writes:
God "saved" us from what? You keep skirting around what one actually has to do to go to hell.
I've inserted a parethesis on both statements above. Everyone is born unsaved. That's the default, so it should be read in that context: God hasn't saved collective, universal 'us'. He has saved those who have been saved. Everyone else remains lost until such time (if ever) they are saved. All can be. Not all will be.
Saved from what? The post below covers more broadly what salvation involves. It is all to easy to concentrate on one aspect of it (being saved from exposure to Gods wrath against our sin) but it is multi-facetted thing.
http://EvC Forum: Great Debate: Romans 1-9 - Larni and Iano -->EvC Forum: Great Debate: Romans 1-9 - Larni and Iano
What does one have to do to remain unsaved?
Reject Gods attempts to save. I've pictured it before as people being born on a sliding slope down, at the end of which is Hell. God attempts to grasp the person in order to arrest the slide. If the person does nothing at all then grasped they will be. If the person pushes His hand away then he cannot grasp (he will not go against their will) and slide on they do.
Examples in real life?
Morals aren't relative. He will work to convince you that the wrong you do is actually wrong (without revealing himself to be the source of the absolutedness of morals just yet - that would interfere with you free will to reject his attempt). The way you reject this call is to insist that morals aren't absolute which has the effect that you must justify your wrong (according to him) actions by claiming to yourself and others that what you did isn't wrong. You'll do it, but somewhere inside you will know your fooling yourself. It has little to do with the wrong you do and everything to do with your response to his attempt to convince you that it is wrong. If, for example, you found yourself struggling (even unto despair) not to do a particular thing that you felt was wrong, yet found yourself failing again and again - then this is good. You have been convinced, you haven't rejected: that you keep doing it is far less important than that you are convinced.
Look at nature. There is argument to say it all happened through chance and that no God is required to explain it. Except that the explaination doesn't explain it. Life from nothing? Science is silent it can never conclude this. Where did the universe come from? Science is silent it can never conclude. Science can tell you the world isn't flat but it cannot but shoot in the dark on these things. But the questions remain. If you chose to believe that it was all the result of chance and accident when there is no argument to say that it did (other than "we don't know yet but we will someday") then you are rejecting. Sheer common sense tells you that accidents don't produce this and in the face of no compelling argument either way you should be convinced by all around you that this is the work of a mind boggling supreme intelligence. We don't have to able to do this ourselves to recognise that it was done. The hallmarks are there.
You are going to be approached by Christians on the street. They will knock on your door. They will talk to you here. You will see a billboard or a tv programme about God. Or a radio talkshow. There will be crap in amongst it but watch out for the following:
An occasion will arise where such an approach occurs in a form like above or some other. Your reaction will be to turn away, to reject. But examine the situation as it happens and ask yourself what is the specific reason to do with THIS occurance which would cause you to turn away from THIS specific occurance (forget in other words the negative conditioning of charlatans). If you find there is none then do it. As soon as you decide to do it you'll get a "nah, I couldn't be bothered" thought running through your head. See this fresh rejection as simply a repeat of your first and reiterate the questioning as to why not in THIS particular case.
For example: 5 years before I became a Christian I was in a book shop in Holland. I had never read the Bible , I doubt I had ever even held one in my hands (although I vaguely recall considering rolling a joint from one of its thin pages). I had absolutely no interest in it. Standing at the counter to pay for the books I had picked, I noticed a small stand on the counter with little pocket books on it. Amongst them were the gospels; one little book for each one. In the spur of the moment I bought Luke. When I got home I opened it and scanned a couple of pages but it seemed very boring so I stuck it on the bookshelf. That was the end of that. I saw it on the bookshelf from time to time and thought to myself: "must pick that up and give it a go". But I never did. I rejected. And so it ebbed and flowed.
That's the way it can go: no big headlines, no super significant decision. Just thousands upon thousands of tugs from him. Everyday he tugs, through conscience, through nature, through the words you read here, through people you meet. And you reject or not the whole time. I suppose a person is damned if they remain in rejection. There doesn come a time when God will cease calling. He will not suffer rejection forever. You aren't necessarily called up to the day you die. It might well be the final moment before death when you respond finally and say "Lord...". For besides the general call, God calls effectually, ie: at some point he issues a call to which you WILL respond and turn to him. He issues that when you have been brought to the point where you are ready to accept him on his terms(even though you still don't know him). Then he delivers the coup d'etat and you die. And are born again.
This is why altar calls and such are problematic. Sure, people are saved then. But only because they have been brought to that point by him. For other who come forward and recite a prayer nothing happens. For mouthing words that he hasn't prepared you to say will have no effect.
Would faith in Allah count as a "rejection"?
Allah, Buddha, Scientism, Yoga, Materialism, success, pursuit of happiness,philosophy couldn't-care-less-about-lifes-questions. All the same thing: all ways to avoid his call.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by RickJB, posted 07-27-2006 3:13 AM RickJB has not replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 44 of 61 (335661)
07-27-2006 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by MUTTY6969
07-27-2006 6:46 AM


Re: Old Testament
Why the double standard? You continually ridicule people on this forum for that same thing,
One does sometimes need to stir the pot in order to keep the discussion going. It is true.
If one says that they do not believe in god then you tell them yes they do they are just ignoring him and will see the light one day it just may be too late.
People know in their heart of hearts that God exists. Their intellects are a different matter. People argue "morals are relative" for example, but cannot live up to their conviction. This is speaking out both sides of your mouth. "Morals are relative" they say, yet they would have mickey fit if I burgled their house and would want me locked up for my wrong doing. "Oh that is for the good of society" they argue. But that is not their motivation. I've done them 'wrong' and that is what bugs them. Go figure...
But you are saying you absolutely can say there is no Allah, and I am saying there is absolutely no way there is a god, do you have special insight?
Yes. I am privileged alright. God saved me when I had absolutely no right to expect that he would do so. I'm a pretty vile sinner if you were to look at it relativisitcally. I gave you the logic behind why I can say there is absolutely no Allah. All it takes is for me to know God exists. I'm one in many millions who know the same thing. I am not special in that sense. If the same happens to you then you would be another added to the number. Anyone can have it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by MUTTY6969, posted 07-27-2006 6:46 AM MUTTY6969 has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 45 of 61 (335662)
07-27-2006 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by iano
07-27-2006 6:08 AM


Re: Old Testament
iano,
Its simple logic: there cannot be two almighty gods. Thus, if God then no Allah. And seeing as I know God exists I therefore know Allah (and all the rest of them) doesn't.
And Muslims know Allah exists, therefore no Xian god.
But the fact is neither of you know anything of the sort.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by iano, posted 07-27-2006 6:08 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by iano, posted 07-27-2006 8:11 AM mark24 has replied

  
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