Christian Pride.

IMHO, one of the most common strawmen Christians fabricate with regards to atheists is that atheists can't accept Christianity/God because of their 'pride'. "Your pride gets in the way. Once you lose it you'll see the light." is an argument I've heard often from Christians when all else fails.By using the word 'pride' most Christians usually refer to egotism or unreasonably high self esteem, the connotation being that atheists are more egotistical/self-centered than Christians, therefore they cannot accept Christ.I'd like to put this puppy to bed once and for all. I hereby propose that Christians have far greater 'pride' than atheists, for the following reasons:1) They are the personal and purposeful creation of the creator of everything. Most atheists accept they are the random by-product of physical laws.2) They communicate directly with said creator.3) They have a chance at an afterlife, while atheists don't.4) Throughout their lives they receive preferential treatment by aforementioned creator. Atheists just get lucky sometimes.I'd also like to open this up for debate.
Do Christians really feel 'special'?
Do atheists really reject Christianity because they can't stand the fact that their lives depend on the whim of a superior being?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

As a Christian I believe that even those physical laws are a creation of GOD, so I see nothing that would lead to pride in that statement. GOD created the atheist as well as the theist. They are both his children and equal in Her eyes. Well I try to. Most often the reply is either a dope slap or the classic "*blink*, I can't believe you really said that!" Again, I don't believe that. In fact, as I've said here before, the Bible tends to make me think that the average Atheist may have a better chance at an afterlife than the average Christian. I don't have a clue where you get that one. I would say it's probably closer to the later. How many dope slaps have you had from GOD lately?You then ask a couple questions. I don't think that I feel anything that approaches 'special'. I do belong to a club, called Christianity, and a chapter called Episcopalian, but it's not a very exclusive club. Don't know. Ask the atheists.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Your faith is touching Lemme see... Christians hold that everyone, Christian or no, is the personal and purposeful creation of creator of everything. There is nothing to be proud of as a Christian for something that all share. Athiests believe (although God knows how) that all (not just they) are the random by-product of physical laws.Pride doesn't come into it in either case. So? What's communication with the creator have to do with pride. He is a person (or rather 3 persons) and we are persons. Persons communicate. Athiests have a much a chance of an afterlife as anyone else. All they have to do is become a Christian and they will have life. Its not that the Christian says this is the way it is - God says so. Your beef must be with him.The Christian has no reason to feel proud just because only Christians have an afterlife. The Christian didn't make himself a Christian afterall - God did. One can hardly be proud of something another did - now can they? Anyone who doesn't fight Gods call on them to the bitter end will be made a Christian. The person who does nothing will be made a Christian - God will draw them. The person who is damned is the one who was active. They can be proud of themselves for they have done something to achieve what they achieve. The actively reject his advances They get treated as sons whereas atheists get treated as enemies (even though God does bless all, friend and foe alike in a general sense: Providence). Again pride has nothing to do with it. What is unusal about a Father treating his children somewhat differently that any old Joe Soap? Special yes. Not because of anything intrinsic in me that makes me better that a non-Christian - I'm not better than another. But because I'm a son of his I am special. Every child of every parent is special to that parent. I am also privileged that he did what he did, fortunate, blessed etc. My specialness arises from his view of me not my own view of meThe same is open to everyone

Hi Ian, Tell me, how does one 'become a Christian'?Cheers.Brian.

Hi Brian! (he said putting on his armour) God makes you one. There is nothing you can do yourself to be made a Christian. You can only prevent yourself being made one. You can visualise it as a gearbox in a car if you like.God knocks our gearbox into neutral using various methods (nature, the Bible, conscience, evangelists etc), then God draws the vehicle (man) closer to himself. Man can put the gearbox into reverse and draw away from God however.There is no forward gear in this gearbox. We cannot drive ourselves towards God. Him knocking it into neutral and drawing, us putting it into reverse and drawing away.Until we die, or he pulls us out of the water or he gives up fishing for us althogether. He will take no for an answer if that is what we really want. He will take yes for an answer if that is what we really want. He is not put off by a NO! which doesn't have a persons heart behind it though. Nor will he be fooled by a Yes! which doesn't have a heart behind it. He is in a position to know where our hearts are.You really and truly want him on his terms. Then you will have him. And him you.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

It must fill the Christian with great pride to know that the supreme being has chosen you.This 'prevent yourself from being one', would that be along the lines of rejecting something that your life experiences have taught you are untrue. For example, I find it an insult to anyone's intelligence to take the virgin birth seriously, thus I cannot take Jesus' entrance into the world seriously, therefore I do not believe that Jesus was divine. This is based on what I have learned throughout my life, so do we need to put our brains into neutral as well? It is interesting that you mention the heart and how God knows what's in your heart because we have to remember that God can harden a person's heart so it makes it impossible for them to accept Him. This is what happened to the pharaoh of the Exodus, God hardened his heart so that pharaoh couldnt even consider letting the Hebrews go. Of course the Bible tells us that God did this so that God could flex His divine muscles, do a little bit of show-boating, so if He can do this 'heart hardening' thing, don't you think it is possible that He has hardened the hearts of other people thus making it impossible for them to accept Him?Brian.

My heart is behind my sternum. Your anatomy may differ.The incredible arrogance/pride of the whole Christian myth - that the whole freakin' universe was built to put humans at the center of so they could glorify and worship a god that just happened to like the same folks the congregation does - was pretty much what planted the seeds of my atheism. It just took me 35 years to really think through it all.

Then I question why spawn of satan is a common phrase tossed around by some christians? And or used to characterize various groups. You have the pride to say that the GOD communicates directly with you? That you are in touch with the alpha and omega? Such a supreme being that merely looking at him would kill you? What happenend to follow the lord of your free will? Are you saying that there are a select few that become Christians because GOD said so? That puts you in an Elite category Iano, must be some form of pride there. Considering how all are his children I don't quite see you can say that you are blessed beyond any other child. Even a child that rejects his father. In your case you are proud to have GOD force or make you to accept him/her. Very questionable. If all are 'special' in the way you describe as a child to a parent, then none of us are 'special.' We become the norm because hey, GOD loves us all and he views us all.I would point out that in Greek storytelling hubris was often the most common downfall of their heroes. Odysseus, Achilles etc, were a god's favored ones...is questioniable does it not seem so?

I don't see how that could be the case. He's trying to catch everyone. Praise the fisherman not the fish if the fish is caught. I wriggled and squirmed for 38 years (exlude whatever amount which you reckon doesn't count from my birthday). And its not until we all die that you can stand up and accuse me of pride anyway - you might well be standing there beside me yourself!And please don't say it can't happen to you. I wriggled the most when the hook went in deep for the final time. Wonder if you're just like me in this respect? Brains into neutral? Not at all. Your denial of God prevents you from believing in a subset of God - miracles. Denial of God first - then the rest - that is the pattern. There is nothing inconsistant with virgin birth and God. You chose to hold that morals are relative (if you indeed do). The foundation of that? Unbelief. You chose to suppose (if you do) that life came from non-life: there is no basis for it scientific or otherwise. Unbelief is its foundation. Without God these other things must be accepted in order to fill the blanks - life experience cannot indicate these things - at least not any life experience that I've ever had. It is very interesting that: the whole heart hardening thing. Now it seems to me that we are not talking about the organ here. But something else which we ourselves refer to "in my heart of hearts"But why not us the organ heart for illustration. Consider it as born. Red and healthy but with a black spot called sinful nature. No sin there, just a disease. Now we sin (how often is it said that "you don't have to teach a child how to lie") The black spreads a bit. And so on. The black bits are harder than the red bits and interfere with tht pumping mechanism.But how does the black spot spread. What is the mechanism for its propagation. God of course. We have no mechanism ourselves. We don't even know where this heart is. But we have a will. And when we exercise it so as to reject what it is we want is for our heart not to face what is being asked to be faced. "I don't want to accept that I was wrong in saying what I said last night""Okay," says God "that is your will. Thy will be done. And he does what our will desires - hardens the part we wanted escape from. We hardened our hearts by giving the command that it be done. God hardens the heart by being the agent who carries out our will. Our will in any area of life can only be expressed because God gives us what we need to express it. No difference hereAnd so it goes on. The heart getting harder and more blackened. Beating less efficiently. Children cry and go red and get upset when they are caught in wrongdoing. They have lots of soft left. It takes something very extreme to get an adult to cry because of their wrongdoing.They say the eyes are the windows to the soul. I knew a pshycologist who was first in with a team when they caught the Yorkshire Ripper (I may have mentioned this to you before). According to this man, Peter Suthcliffes eyes were completely dead. Devoid of any spark of life. I suppose and completely blackened heart in order for him to do what he did.

That a person could look around and say accident was, I think, one of the things which got me wondering. "It doesn't fit" would have been the thought that ran through my heart of hearts.It took me 38 years to come to the opposite conclusion.Although having seen some american style 'Christianity' I do wonder whether we are talking along the same lines here at times. Ireland only has RC. Which means there is a blankish canvas as far as the workings of the gospel go. Over there it would face somewhat more competition from the crazies."Jesus Loves Jessie" plastered down the side of a Lear Jet. My word!

Hi jar,I've stated these beliefs to support my assertion that Christians have more pride than atheists, not as a result of the factual validity of these beliefs but as a result of the impact they have on one's ego.

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1)They are the personal and purposeful creation of the creator of everything. Most atheists accept they are the random by-product of physical laws.

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So, you -as a Christian- think that you were purposefully created by the almighty creator while I -as an atheist- think I was created by chance. Although I don't think this applies to you personally, I dare ask which one of us is more likely to take more pride in ourselves because of our origins ?

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2) They communicate directly with said creator. .

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at least you can communicate with the ultimate being. I, on the other hand, can't. Again, which one of us is more likely to feel special?

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3) They have a chance at an afterlife, while atheists don't.

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I don't know what to say to that other than -with all due respect- you're not what I'd call your 'average Christian'. Mainstream Christianity categorically purports that unless you believe in Jesus as your personal saviour you won't get saved. That rules out us atheists.

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4) Throughout their lives they receive preferential treatment by aforementioned creator. Atheists just get lucky sometimes.

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I've had a few, I just don't believe they were from God. The vast majority of Christians I know believe that at some time in their lives God has intervened in their favour either directly or indirectly. Now, you have the ultimate being, the creator of everything, helping you personally. How special does that make you feel ?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Hi Ian,I think most of this has been said in previous posts, but hey I have some spare time, So here I am thinking I was created by accident and there you are thinking you were created by the ultimate being, the creator of everything, for a purpose.which one of us is feeling more smug ? he's not just a person, is he ? He's the creator of everything, the alpha and the omega. You can talk to him, I can't. Doesn't that make you feel just a little bit superior ? so...we agree...by definition atheists don't have a chance at an afterlife. You, as a Christian, are nearly there. Doesn't that make you feel a bit special ? ignoring the obvious contradiction in your statement, don't you feel better than me, what with having the almighty creator of everything treating you as a son, while I'm being treated as an enemy ? so I take it you agree with me that Christians are more prideful than atheists and that the line "you'll never accept Christ unless you lose your pride" is a lot of last-resort gobbledygook.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

I think I can answer a couple of your questions.First, in the cases where you ask if I feel special, the answer is no. You said Where did I say that I thought we were purposefully created? I don't as a matter of fact. I think that everything we see as this Universe was created. Whether it has a purpose or not, I don't know. Do I believe that I was an intended concious product of that creation? Well, no. I can't help you too much there except to say I don't feel special at all about that. I can't speak a foriegn language except a little Canadian and Australian. But I don't feel inferior because of that. Perhaps somewhat limited but I also assume that there may well be areas where those who do speak a foriegn language might be limited yet I might excel. We are all different, perhaps each special in our own way. Again, I don't think I am that far out of the mainstream. I've taught both kids and adults in Sunday School and served on vestries and there are many other Christians, even here at EvC that seem to share many of the same beliefs that I express. Actually, not very special. You see, I believe that GOD has also done the same things for you. In your case they can be attributed to luck or some anonymous donor or just chance, but there is nothing that GOD does for me She doesn't do for you.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

So,You only can get to heaven if You become a Christian.And you only become a Christian of God CHOOSES you.That says it all right there.