Israel/Lebanon/Gaza conflict (continuation thread)

No comparison? NONE? How can that be? What an odd assertion.People have a right to self-determination. Freedom entails the power to choose, not the opportunity to imitate another. Even now, the U.S. is learning that a democratic Iraq may not be such a cozy toady. It's a case of being careful what you wish for...Approximately one-third of the colonists supported independence. Opponents were burnt out, murdered, or otherwise run out of town. The primary financial support came from merchants who sought the wealth freedom from British taxes would bring--the initial revolts were ENTIRELY about taxes, not ideology.The current administration supports Russia's suppression of national movements for independence in the former USSR satellites--those underground fighters, according to both Bush and Putin, are terrorists. Once having gained independence, the U.S. has cynically opposed similar aspirations around the world.The American Revolution has taken on a considerable gloss of feel-good jingoistic fuzziness, but it was no less oriented to a calculus of wealth and power, slaving and conquest. You want to dress up America's history in vaseline-lensed, soft focus gooshiness, while being brutally real-politik about others. The former is false, and the latter has failed, over and over.Extermination might work in Lebanon. Would you support it?Edited by Omnivorous, : one letter

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God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, ”Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It’s yours.’
--Ann Coulter, Fox-TV: Hannity & Colmes, 20 Jun 01 Save lives! Click here!
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Really? Christianity has no bearing on the conduct of nations?Nations and peoples around the world suffer greater depredations than Israel, but only Israel plays a role in an even bloodier vision of Christian destiny. That's the real reason, yes?Sixty odd years ago, Christians couldn't be bothered to save Jews from death camps; thirty years ago, American Catholics and Protestants alike discriminated against the "dirty Jews"... Now that the religious right holds some reins of power, and promotes Israel's role in the Apocalypse, the equation has changed.It's not about Israel's righteousness, it's about your apocalyptic notions. They are all--Israelis and Lebanese alike--a means to an end for you.

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God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, ”Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It’s yours.’
--Ann Coulter, Fox-TV: Hannity & Colmes, 20 Jun 01 Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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You have no comprehension of the situation at all really.Israel had the freedom to rid Lebanon of Hezbollah for 20 years. They even went to the extent of allowing the genocide of between 750-3000 palestinian refugees. Eventually, they left, defeated, like the US did in vietnam. You cannot fight a conventional war against guerilla & terrorist groups supported by the indigenous population, as the US is discovering again in Iraq.Israel will not destroy Hezbollah, they can destroy the infrastructure, a proportion of fighters, a few missiles. But they are just consolidating support for them. Breeding a new generation to fight against them. Yous'a all crazy...When will people learn I wonder. I'm sure Jesus would be proud of you all supporting death and destruction. Well done. Induced Birth pangs in Iran next I guess, we wouldn't want Syria and Hezbollah messing up well-laid plans...

The fighting in the Middle East is NOT, I repeat, NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT, about freedom, not about self-determination. The Muslims are fighting for Allah and out of sheer unprovoked hatred for Israel, NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT for freedom. There is absolutely NO comparison with the American revolution. NONE.My view of Iraq from the beginning was that I didn't think Bush's plan could work for this very reason. He vindicated his plan to my mind, however, to the extent that the elections showed him right about a great desire for freedom and democracy even there, but as long as fundamental Islam rules, no freedom is ever going to be possible. The blindness of the world to this fact, and Bush's own blindness, shown most depressingly in his statement that Islam is a "religion of peace," gives me no hope for any solution there except constant vigilance, and force when necessary to eliminate actual threats. Forget the idealism of peace. They'll have to bring it about themselves, by rising up against their own hardline Muslim leaders, if that is ever to happen. Something about a snowball in hell comes to mind. Well, I've been saying all along that it wasn't about ideology, so you aren't disagreeing with me there. Ideology as I've been using it means doing everything to further some (crackpot) idealistic plan for the world, like Communism or Islam, as opposed to the usual political motivations.Nothing at all wrong with the merchants' rebellion against a tyrannical stranglehold on their profits. Nothing evil about that at all. {Edit: Freedom includes freedom to earn a living and even get rich, honestly of course, without being taxed into poverty for the attempt. By the way, England had no right to tax the colonies at all because the colonies had no representation in Parliament.}I'll take your word for it that some of the loyalists were persecuted, but so were the revolutionists:U.S. Senate: 404 Error PageStart reading halfway down at the title, The Declaration's Signers Risked Hanging.And Rush Limbaugh collected some facts on the situation too:http://usff.com/usff/sacredhonor.html You are entitled to your opinion but I don't know enough about these situations to agree or disagree, and for now it is off topic anyway as we are talking about this particular situation in Lebanon. That's certainly tarring it with a broad brush. A lot of upright admirable men were involved in that revolution that you are smearing there.Pardon my jingoistic fuzziness, but I'm an admirer of many of them for their complete lack of the low motives you ascribe to them: THAT is the spirit of the Declaration of Independence. My support goes for using enough force to stop the terrorism. I really don't think it would take much, and Israel is being quite surgical in its methods. If all you whitewashers of terrorism would just back off your kneejerk condemnations of Israel based on the latest bit of propaganda to come down the pike, the least damage and killing would be done and peace might actually have a chance.And I have to ask you too: Have you listened to the Canadian general I linked in Message 92?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : Added some quotes from the sites I linked.Edited by Faith, : grammar, identifying quotes

Only in that Christ is Jehovah God who warned the nations of the consequences of misbehavior. But nations are not called to obey the principles of the Sermon on the Mount for instance. Only individuals can do that. Nations cannot "turn the other cheek" for instance, only individuals can. Nations are populations that have to be defended and protected against enemies. If you turn the other cheek as a nation, you risk the deaths of the whole population. Fine to risk your own death, that's what the command asks us to do. But it is a crime to risk the death of others. Too bad Israel is always kept on the defensive by this evil equation of terrorism with national rights. They might actually be a help in the world for the problems of those other nations you are talking about. I support Israel because it is in the right and its enemies in the wrong. I don't have a religious reason. May be for some, but not for me.

The terrorism of Hezbollah is self-breeding. If world opinion, which you no doubt share, will not allow Israel to build a fence or protect itself in any way it is YOU who are feeding the terrorism. Condemn them in NO uncertain terms. The entire world should be condemning them. But as long as you are condemning Israel and turning a blind eye to the tactics and intentions of the terrorist organizations, YOU are responsible for the whole mess there. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Simple question. Was the creation of Israel and the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous arabs a moral and just action? If so, why?@Faith (message 156) - I am responsible, that's quite funny. The actions of Israel in Lebanon from 1982-2000 created Hezbollah, not me.ABE: guess it was a tough one then...Edited by melatonin, : No reason given.Edited by melatonin, : No reason given.

There was no ethnic cleansing of the Arabs. As usual, the Leftist Brigade at EvC can't tell right from wrong:Background & Overview of First Lebanon War

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Israel has long sought a peaceful northern border. But Lebanon's position as a haven for terrorist groups has made this impossible. In March 1978, PLO terrorists infiltrated Israel. After murdering an American tourist walking near an Israeli beach, they hijacked a civilian bus. The terrorists shot through the windows as the bus traveled down the highway. When Israeli troops intercepted the bus, the terrorists opened fire. A total of 34 hostages died in the attack. In response, Israeli forces crossed into Lebanon and overran terrorist bases in the southern part of that country, pushing the terrorists away from the border. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) withdrew after two months, allowing United Nations forces to enter. But UN troops were unable to prevent terrorists from reinfiltrating the region and introducing new, more dangerous arms.

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Violence escalated with a series of PLO attacks and Israeli reprisals. Finally, the United States helped broker a ceasefire agreement in July 1981. The PLO repeatedly violated the cease-fire over the ensuing 11 months. Israel charged that the PLO staged 270 terrorist actions in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, and along the Lebanese and Jordanian borders. Twenty-nine Israelis died and more than 300 were injured in the attacks.

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Meanwhile, a force of some 15-18,000 PLO members was encamped in scores of locations in Lebanon. About 5,000-6,000 were foreign mercenaries, coming from such countries as Libya, Iraq, India, Sri Lanka, Chad and Mozambique. Israel later discovered enough light arms and other weapons in Lebanon to equip five brigades. The PLO arsenal included mortars, Katyusha rockets and an extensive antiaircraft network. The PLO also brought hundreds of T34 tanks into the area. Syria, which permitted Lebanon to become a haven for the PLO and other terrorist groups, brought surface-to-air missiles into that country, creating yet another danger for Israel...

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Etc, etc, etc.

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Islam's war on the "infidel" created Hezbollah and you refuse to recognize it. I've been out running an errand for the last half hour or so. I leave evc open.

So when Ben Gurion ordered the removal of 50,000+ palestinians from two cities this was just for their convenience? ARI SHAVIT - SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST? AN INTERVIEW WITH BENNY MORRIS: LOGOS WINTER 2004Didn't you read the Benny Morris interview? You should, you'll find he has little appreciation of the arabs and supports everything they did in 1948 and since then, in fact he believes that every single arab should have been removed, even from Gaza and the West Bank. But at least he is honest.So you agree I never created Hezbollah then, thanks. Hezbollah was a result of the occupation of Lebanon by Israel. No Israel in Lebanon, no Hezbollah. The IDF spent 18 years there, they could not beat them then, what makes you believe they will this time?ABE: Anyway, the question still stands. Was it a moral and just action?Edited by melatonin, : No reason given.Edited by melatonin, : No reason given.

I'm not claiming that Israel is squeaky clean in all this, I'm sure they've made many bad decisions. All I'm saying is that the fundamental cause of the whole mess is on the Arab side, that peace could have been had years ago if it weren't for their ideological unprovoked hatred of Israel, and this is being systematically ignored or denied or whitewashed by public opinion which unconscionably sides with the terrorists. Israel has had to deal with fifth column enemies in their midst, with Muslim leaders who either say outright that they will never recognize Israel or say it in Arabic and say something else to the world; with false peace agreements and lies galore, all in an atmosphere of world opinion against them. In all these situations they've made some bad decisions. But the overarching cause of all of this is the ideological war against them.And I didn't say you created Hezbollah. I said Hezbollah is ideologically self-creating. It had nothing to do with any particular actions of Israel's; all that is just a smoke screen for their fundamental hatred of Israel as such, fueled mostly by Islam.About you, I said your siding with the terrorists against Israel makes you responsible for the whole mess, because if the world condemned the terrorists with one voice as they rightly should, THAT would stop the wars, and then and only then Israel's misdeeds could be judged in a reasonable context.I distrust Morris' version of history. I like the Jewish Virtual Library. They seem to aim for balance. If I can't be sure that certain things happened as described, I certainly can't make a moral judgment of the event.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I'm not siding with Hezbollah, I'm aiming for balance like you seem to appreciate. I have spent a long time reading trying to understand the problem. The problem is that we have two groups of people that claim the same land as their own - one a biblical claim, the other being dispossessed from their homes because of this claim. So if we look for fundamental causes, I see it rather different.The actions of both sides of the conflict are despicable, both Israeli and Islamic groups. Hezbollah was created to resist Israeli occupation of Lebanon, not to destroy Israel. Like Hamas, they provide social services to their respective people. They are not like Al-Queda whose sole purpose is terror. To their people, both Hamas and Hezbollah are fighting an oppressive occupier. That is not to say they do not use terror tactics. This is why I compared the Jewish terrorist groups with these groups, they both were/are fighting what they consider occupiers/colonials.I agree that both should lay down their weapons, I wish more used Ghandi-style resistance. But I can do little about it - we have a cycle of violence, violence begets violence.Benny Morris has spent years studying and finding IDF documents relating to the early conflict. He is in no way biased, why should he be, he is a committed Zionist.

That's a lie.Or,prove it.

It's not surprising when a terrorist group with no power in the UN decides not to follow that advice. That is different than a nation who is part of the UN and expected to follow resolutions. Instead of repeating the above point, why not deal with what I have presented to you instead. Israel is in numerous violation of resolutions and reckless disregard for UN observation posts is another violation.They were to stop and they didn't. Why didn't they stop buz? Why couldn't they switch? I am in complete agreement, including your off topic pro firearms rant which followed. I am not a knee jerk liberal, deal with my points....Why was continued bombing of a well known UN outpost NEEDED to compensate for the hezbollah attack? I have already stated I totally agree that Israel had a right to respond to Hezbollah's attck in some way, my criticism has been its form, and this particular case is a fantastic example. Why was telling the observers in that outpost to stay where they are as the shelling would stop, when in fact they were going to continue shelling, NEEDED to compensate for the Hezbollah attack?Would the Israelis have launched such an offensive within their own neighborhoods if Hezbollah managed to get in that far? Would you accept such behavior from England towards the US to get at supporters of the IRA? How about the US to your neighborhood in case a terrorist cell of any kind (maybe even Xian extremist) were there?The idea of international law was to remove the law of the jungle. That means that nations refrain from just any response they might want to make. I don't see how this was NEEDED much less legal.You have yet to set out why it was necessary (they had no other options). No you didn't. You made one wholly fallacious comment about the UN, then said the fact that the entire world disagreed with US-Israel makes the rest of the world wrong and in support of Islam (while the US & Israel are unbiased?), and finally gave a list of issues the UN has not dealt with which ignored the fact that the war on terror was set as one of the highest priorities for them to deal with and it is linked to the issues they decided to take on.

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holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

Israel bombded some oil depots creating a massive environmental problem ruining a tourist beach that had nothing to do with Hizbollah.I understand attacking Hizbollah. I think bowing to international pressure to do something like remove the pest-free farms from Israel and then go back in and blow it all up could be signs the pressure is causing a crack in Israel's gov sanity as far as policy.My hope is Israel go in and destroy their enemies sufficiently to end this stuff, at least for awhile.

Interesting, an unsupported claim is not necessarily a lie, even if it turns out to be wrong... suppose I had made a mistake Faith... just as Buz did when he claimed that the UN is so anti Israel it is the only nation not allowed to be a member? Notice I didn't say he was lying, though I do notice you didn't call him one.On the flipside your claim that I am lying means that you claim there is no such evidence. So I guess when I prove that, it means you are a liar? Or is it just that you are mistaken?While I actually didn't have time to do research today I am going out of my way in this case. I'm going to leave out the cases of terrorist bombings and massacres by Israelis or those trying to form Israel (such as the King David Hotel incident) because you might decide to argue that isn't the gov't of Israel (though that would be hypocrisy as Lebanon is getting punished for Hezbollah). Here is a discussion of illegal deportations of innocent people. It is called "deterence" by Israel, it is considered "collective punishment" by law.Here is a second link to a discussion of demolation of housing.Please note that those discussing the violations as "collective punishment" above are ISRAELIS. It doesn't take a left wing anti Israel nutcase to observe what is happening and fit it to a definition. In this article it is mentioned that Kofi Annan refers to the attacks on Lebanon as "collective punishment".Here is a petition to Ariel Sharon by the Zionist youth movement. You simply can't get more unbiased than actually quoting self-proclaimed zionists... here's an excerpt: Here is a link to a discussion from a nonIsraeli source of Ariel Sharon. His maltreatment of Palestinian citizens is notorious, and involved many reprisals which got him reprimanded even by Israeli courts (though always getting lenient treatement). In fact the only reason he did not face a war crimes tribunal is that the US got some international laws change to prevent Palestinians from lodging claims in foreign courts. Note at the end of the article a description of what Bishop Tutu feels about the plight of the Palestinians (and he's not an avid Islamist, right?).Actually Sharon's own statement about Palestinians is itself quite telling. Here are just a few of his own words: Sorry I could only track down one of the dates, but I am really pressed for time. If you do research into Sharon, even in writings by himself and those who like him, you'll find his sentiments and activities were pro punishment of the Palestinians as a whole, rather than just guilty parties. Here's a wild card link to a Rabbi who is vastly antiZionist, so pick and choose whether you trust his claims.Another Israeli link on deportation plans. Note Sharon's comments. Here's another Israeli link, Haaretz newspaper, describing the acts as collective punishement.Amnesty International has declared that they used collective punishement, but I assume you'd consider that a biased source.I did not go into any detail on the razing of agriculture, besides one passing mention above, but it really deserves some note. A popular tactic is razing olive trees. Clearly this has nothing to do with protecting Israel from terrorism, and acts to monetarily punish innocent Palestinians for decades (it takes a long time for olive trees to produce well).You need to do more research before you start throwing around accusations of lying.Edited by holmes, : general editsEdited by holmes, : more fixesEdited by holmes, : third times the charm?

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holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)