Israel/Lebanon/Gaza conflict (continuation thread)

So you don't approve of the peace process in Northern Ireland then?After all, one of the key factors in that has been Britain talking to the IRA - even if only indirectly.

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Oops! Wrong Planet

I listened to it as soon as you posted it.An interesting but not altogether surprising piece of information, but insufficient by itself to convince me the hit on the UN post wasn't deliberate.The most telling thing is - as far as I have heard to date - that the final destruction of the UN post and the death of the four unarmed observers was as a result of a laser guided bomb from an Israeli aircraft.That's unlikely to be a mistake or an accident or collateral damage.There was a piece on BBC News 24 last night where they showed pictures of the UN observation posts in that area along with an interview with a guy who'd been a UN observer there a few years back.The posts are painted white, with the letters UN painted on them in 6 foot high letters and are sited as much as possible in clear areas (or the areas around them are cleared - not sure which) - they stick out like a sore thumb.From CBC: Four direct artillery hits on the base, no Hezbollah firing in the immediate vicinity at the time and then an airstrike to destroy the base.It still doesn't sound like an accident or mistake to me.I also don't hold out much hope of an investigation by the perpetrators throwing much light on what really happened.

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Oops! Wrong Planet

Of course there couldn't be anybody left in the South who is:

• Too old to get out
• Too ill to get out
• Caring for the above
• Disabled
• Doesn't have a car
• Can't get petrol because the Israelis have hit the petrol stations
• Is too afraid to be on the roads in case the Israelis hit more civilian vehicles
• Only has a truck - which is almost certain to be hit by the Israelis
• Can't afford the Taxi fare to get out
• There's probably others I haven't thouoght of

Isn't most of Israel more or less untouched by this war as well?

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Oops! Wrong Planet

Well if the Lebanese civilians can be expected to flee to their countrymen up North to avoid being caught up in the hostilities why can't the civilians in Northern Israel flee to their countrymen in the South?By the way, although it appears not have been a problem yet - although that's no guarantee of the future - the inhabitants of Southern Lebanon are mostly Shia whereas the population Northwards is mostly Druze, Christian or Sunni. It's not that long since these groups were at each other's throats in a bloddy civil war.

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Oops! Wrong Planet

Just for completeness I should point out that Lewis MacKenzie, the Major-General in question, retired 13 years ago and more recently has been involved in politics (in 1997 he stood for the centre-right Progressive Conservative party in the Canadian federal elections and it's not impossible he would have been Deputy Prime Minister had his party won power).His views should be taken in the context of his right wing politics at least as much as his military experience.

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My jaw dropped and I just sat there with my mouth open after I read this.They just have to walk a few blocks to be safe???Your map is of Beirut Faith - which is located in the centre of Lebanon someting like forty or fifty miles from the Southern Border with Israel. We're talking about the people who live in the border region with Israel, not the people who live in Beirut!If I recall correctly the last warnings the Israelis dropped in the border area told people they had to go North of the Litani River, which is anything up to twenty miles from the border.They just have to walk a few blocks to be safe - your racist contempt and lack of compassion for the Lebanese civilians just gets worse and worse.As for the giving warning - Hezbollah has said pretty much from the first day it was going to fire into Northern Israel. That's pretty much exactly the warning the Isrealis have given. I actually started typing in an explanation in the original post but decided to delete it on the grounds that I was insulting the intelligence of anyone with half a brain.Oh well.The point is simple. For fifteen years from 1975 to 1990 Lebanon was torn apart by a brutal civil war between the different ethnic, religious and political groups in the country. The wounds of that civil war are, as after any such conflict, not all that far beneath the surface. You are saying that a huge number of refugees from one group (the Shias from the Southern region) should be dumped onto one of the other groups they were until recently at war with. That's a recipe for potential trouble.You may not care if Lebanon descends into civil war again (since you've made it very plain you don't care how many Lebanese die) but anyone with an ounce of decency in their soul doesn't want to see it happen.

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Oops! Wrong Planet

As I stated previously I listened to the interview when you first linked to it. Further I did not say he was a typical conservative, I said: Do you have somprehension problems? He stood for the Progressive Conservative Party - that is pretty much self-describing.

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More bullshit from you. The Israelis told them had to move at least as far North as beyond the Litani River - 15 miles according to The times.If you put leaflet litani river into Google you will find numerous references to the leaflets the Israelis dropped (along with radio broadcasts and mobile phone messages). Here's one from the online version of The Times newspaper. In all the cases from history I can think of no matter how many refugees have fled from war there are always people who are left behind for some reason. Even in the Darfur region of Sudan there are still people who haven't left their villages. As someone else pointed out, even the US with all of it's wealth and technology couldn't evacuate New Orleans - and Hurricane Katrina wasn't launching missiles and artillery shells at civilian vehicles trying to run away from it. I don't know what media you watch but the ones I watch over here (BBC, BBC News 24 and Channel 4 News) have said no such thing. They have reported that with the exception of targets like the airport and the fuel tanks of the Jiyyeh power station the air strikes in Beirut have been almost exclusively aimed at the Southern suburbs where the Shia live (and so, by virtue of Hezbollah being a Shia organisation Hezbollah is based). In fact when the Israelis struck a Christian area it was a high-up item on the news coverage because it was a major break in the pattern.I can't receive BBC World but I strongly suspect the statement on your map that: is simply an out and out lie. It seems unlikely one branch of the BBC would be at odds with everything else they do. Just last night there was an article on BBC News 24 from an up-market (and untouched) Christian area of Northern Beirut. As another example here is a map from the BBC web site in the early days of the conflict showing the limited area of Israeli strikes on Beirut (given how ignorant you are of the situation over there I will tell you that the area marked 'Harat Hreik' is a Shia area of Beirut).If anybody is watching media that claims all of Beirut is being destroyed I strongly suggest they get another news source. Or is this more of the uninformed BS you spout? Can you point me at some instances of mainstream news media claiming - or even giving the impression - that all of Beirut is being destroyed? If not we can safely conclude you and your ilk are just spouting unmitigated crap. In Beirut the distance between danger and safety is nominally the distance between a Shia district and a non-Shia district. In fact most of the coverage I've seen since the first few days of the week has said that the Shia areas of Beirut are largely deserted. That's why the death toll in Beirut is relatively low.In the South the situation is very different. The Israelis - read that Faith, the Israelis - have declared that nowhere South of the Litani River is safe. It is not safe to be on the roads. I have seen numerous stories filed by reporters who are driving in the South who are in touch with the IDF by mobile phone to let them know they are with a convoy of cars on the road to a particular town or village and the response of the IDF is always that they can't guarantee there won't be an air strike or artillery fire aimed at them.Interestingly because the Israelis reduced their air strikes yesterday a lot of journalists took the chance to get to places they couldn't get to before. Know who they found? Mostly the old, infirm and people who said they couldn't get out because they had no car and couldn't afford a bus or taxi to safety. "Get North of the Litani River or we'll kill you" - yup, that's a very specific warning. Monstrously inhuman but very specific.

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Oops! Wrong Planet

More bullshit from you. Resolution 1559 does not call on the UN to disarm Hezbollah.

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Oops! Wrong Planet

Obviously no non-Muslim has ever feigned illness before. Without seeing the video I can't comment on why this happened but I have seen this (a stretcher being dropped and the person on it walking away) with my own eyes.The 'Tiger' part of my name is a reference to the fact I am a Season Ticket holder at the Leicester Tigers Rugby Club. In the very first game I saw when I got my Season Ticket a Wasps player was injured on the field and was being stretchered off. The stretcher was dropped and the guy walked the rest of the way to the sidelines so he could be treated.Basically sometimes if you're ill or injured you'll take the offer of being stretchered even though you perhaps don't strictly need it. However if the stretcher bearers are so incompetent that they drop you then it's not surprising you decide to complete the rest of your journey under your own steam.

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