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Author Topic:   Israel/Lebanon/Gaza conflict (continuation thread)
iano
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 286 of 300 (337211)
08-01-2006 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Faith
07-30-2006 9:52 PM


Re: Media propaganda continued.
I don't buy the consumer-driven explanation myself. The average consumer mostly accepts what he's fed and the news media are definitely in a position to influence what people think. Why do we see so much Arab or Muslim outrage reaction, which has a tendency to justify their cause by evoking emotion on their behalf, and so little of the other side of the story? No reason they can't send journalists into Israel same as into Lebanon.

Having spent so long consuming the news media myself I find conversations on the workings of the industry with my jouralist mate all the more fascinating. They were doing a shoot on organiszed drug crime. Some tricks employed

- shoot secret footage of the alleged crim on shaky hand held camera. There was no need to do so - the footage could have been shot smoothly. But it helps fix in the mind of the viewer that this is a real crim. The shaky footage provides evidence as strong in the mind as any hard evidence which may be included

- the product must contain points of drama at not-to-distant intervals from each other. The attention span of the viewer demands this. So a scene is shot where a man is talking about his suspicion that his drug dealer son is buried in some building foundations somewhere. Off camera questioning encourages the father to point to some building foundations (picked for the shoot). In editing, the impression is given that these are the very foundations the father suspects. The viewer is given the unmistakable impression that one would only have to dig and a body would be found. Such a thought holds the viewer locked into those foundations and imagining the body (so says my mate)

- the product to succeed must appeal to high-end emotion: it must evoke anger or worry or fear or despair or joy or pride or excitement etc however that is achieved. If the news doesn't do these things then it isn't really news. A slow news day is a day when the news doesn't contain these triggers. A successful product is one which grips people. Grip is prime, objectivity second. Objective without grip is useless.

Coverage of Lebanon is ripe with the factors necessary for a good product. Israel is not. In fact the David vs Goliath angle only adds to things. Survey after survey ranks journalist as those the public distrust. Except when it comes to such as this conflict. The appeal to emotion is apparent don't you think - if nothing else.

As a once high-up-in-NASA uncle of mine once told me regarding its reporting of NASA-related issues: "I watch CNN to find out what's NOT going on. Whatever they say is happening helps me to know what might well be happening - for what they say it is, it most certainly isn't. It's how I keep track of the game that is being played. CNN are a pawn and it is worth watching in which direction the pawn is being moved"

Quite..

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Faith, posted 07-30-2006 9:52 PM Faith has not yet responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 31616
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 287 of 300 (337221)
08-01-2006 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Parasomnium
08-01-2006 11:55 AM


Re: A real solution
Talk is useless because one side of the table never tells the truth unless it temporarily furthers their ultimate purpose of getting rid of Israel for good. Deliver us please from any more "peace" agreements.

And the side that never tells the truth isn't going to stop its terrorism either. During the talks they will be regrouping their forces, and emboldened by Israel's being in a strait jacket again, repairing their Hezbollah positions and increasing their arsenals in Palestine as well, right up against Israel. The longer the useless talking goes on, the more time they have for this purpose.

The problem is that your proposal puts Israel at a disadvantage. The terrorists don't care what the world thinks of them except as a strategic maneuver, for which purpose they are willing to create all kinds of illusions and deceptions. If they have time enough to build up strength, they can ignore everybody else. And we'll end up in WWIII that way just as surely as any other way.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Parasomnium, posted 08-01-2006 11:55 AM Parasomnium has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by NosyNed, posted 08-01-2006 1:32 PM Faith has responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8842
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 288 of 300 (337229)
08-01-2006 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Faith
08-01-2006 12:40 PM


The end results...
Talk is useless because one side of the table never tells the truth unless it temporarily furthers their ultimate purpose of getting rid of Israel for good. Deliver us please from any more "peace" agreements.

Do you think that Hezbollah thought that Israel would just talk when they attacked? Is it more likely that they had a pretty good idea that Israel would do just as it has done but they went ahead anyway? Why?

Why? Because what is happening is what they want to happen.

And the end result? An American city is going to be nuked. (It probably would have happened anyway but this just increases the liklelyhood) If that is what you want then you should continue to support the responses that Hezbollah desired and is getting. Just don't expect to be 'raptured' away from the consequences.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 08-01-2006 12:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Faith, posted 08-01-2006 2:34 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 289 of 300 (337236)
08-01-2006 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Faith
07-31-2006 8:48 PM


Re: I trust those sources.
Obviously you didn't listen to the interview in which he showed claerly that he is no typical conservative.

As I stated previously I listened to the interview when you first linked to it. Further I did not say he was a typical conservative, I said:

His views should be taken in the context of his right wing politics at least as much as his military experience.

Do you have somprehension problems?

he doesn't identify himself as a conservative

He stood for the Progressive Conservative Party - that is pretty much self-describing.


Oops! Wrong Planet
This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Faith, posted 07-31-2006 8:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16621
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 290 of 300 (337243)
08-01-2006 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by MangyTiger
08-01-2006 1:47 PM


Re: I trust those sources.
MangyTiger writes:

He stood for the Progressive Conservative Party - that is pretty much self-describing.

One Canadian perspective: Lewis MacKenzie was a pretty good general (as Canadian generals go). As a politician, he was pretty much of an idiot.

One Canadian's advice to Americans: Never let a general get involved in politics.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by MangyTiger, posted 08-01-2006 1:47 PM MangyTiger has not yet responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 31616
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 291 of 300 (337244)
08-01-2006 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by MangyTiger
08-01-2006 1:47 PM


Re: I trust those sources.
"the context of his right wing politics" sure sounds to me like you are calling him a conservative. He says he's not. That's all I know.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by MangyTiger, posted 08-01-2006 1:47 PM MangyTiger has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31616
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 292 of 300 (337246)
08-01-2006 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by NosyNed
08-01-2006 1:32 PM


Re: The end results...
I don't believe in the rapture unless it's the Second Coming when it's all over for everybody anyway, and don't address me as if I do.

Do I think that Hezbollah thought that Israel would just talk when who attacked? Who went ahead anyway doing what? I really don't know what you are trying to say here. What is happening is what who wants to happen?

Yes I expect eventually an American city may very well be nuked.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by NosyNed, posted 08-01-2006 1:32 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16621
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 293 of 300 (337251)
08-01-2006 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Faith
08-01-2006 2:34 PM


Re: The end results...
to NozyNed, Faith writes:

I really don't know what you are trying to say here. What is happening is what who wants to happen?

Ned can correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems pretty clear what he's saying: Israel is playing directly into the hands of the terrorists.

By answering brutality with brutality, Israel is emphasizing the plight of the Palestinians and de-emphasizing the plight of the Jews.

Never mind who's right or wrong, who's defensive or aggressive, who's provoked or not, who has a legitimate claim to the land.... The Israeli policy is not working. Israel is not safer than it was, it is not more highly regarded by the world community.

Why don't you encourage Israel to adopt a policy that works?


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This message is a reply to:
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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 294 of 300 (337256)
08-01-2006 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
07-31-2006 9:49 PM


Re: Escaping the war zone isn't hard
Nobody said they had to move that far north.

More bullshit from you. The Israelis told them had to move at least as far North as beyond the Litani River - 15 miles according to The times.

If you put leaflet litani river into Google you will find numerous references to the leaflets the Israelis dropped (along with radio broadcasts and mobile phone messages). Here's one from the online version of The Times newspaper.

Getting out of the war zone simply cannot be impossible to pull off

In all the cases from history I can think of no matter how many refugees have fled from war there are always people who are left behind for some reason. Even in the Darfur region of Sudan there are still people who haven't left their villages. As someone else pointed out, even the US with all of it's wealth and technology couldn't evacuate New Orleans - and Hurricane Katrina wasn't launching missiles and artillery shells at civilian vehicles trying to run away from it.

The map was just an illustration of how the thing is blown out of proportion by the media -- Beirut destroyed and all that, when it's not true at all -- and the distances between the danger zones and safety are SMALL!

I don't know what media you watch but the ones I watch over here (BBC, BBC News 24 and Channel 4 News) have said no such thing. They have reported that with the exception of targets like the airport and the fuel tanks of the Jiyyeh power station the air strikes in Beirut have been almost exclusively aimed at the Southern suburbs where the Shia live (and so, by virtue of Hezbollah being a Shia organisation Hezbollah is based). In fact when the Israelis struck a Christian area it was a high-up item on the news coverage because it was a major break in the pattern.

I can't receive BBC World but I strongly suspect the statement on your map that:

BBC broadcasts intentionally distort. so that the idea is conveyed that the whole city has been destroyed. When it fact 99% has not been touched.

is simply an out and out lie. It seems unlikely one branch of the BBC would be at odds with everything else they do. Just last night there was an article on BBC News 24 from an up-market (and untouched) Christian area of Northern Beirut. As another example here is a map from the BBC web site in the early days of the conflict showing the limited area of Israeli strikes on Beirut (given how ignorant you are of the situation over there I will tell you that the area marked 'Harat Hreik' is a Shia area of Beirut).

If anybody is watching media that claims all of Beirut is being destroyed I strongly suggest they get another news source. Or is this more of the uninformed BS you spout? Can you point me at some instances of mainstream news media claiming - or even giving the impression - that all of Beirut is being destroyed? If not we can safely conclude you and your ilk are just spouting unmitigated crap.

and the distances between the danger zones and safety are SMALL!

In Beirut the distance between danger and safety is nominally the distance between a Shia district and a non-Shia district. In fact most of the coverage I've seen since the first few days of the week has said that the Shia areas of Beirut are largely deserted. That's why the death toll in Beirut is relatively low.

In the South the situation is very different. The Israelis - read that Faith, the Israelis - have declared that nowhere South of the Litani River is safe. It is not safe to be on the roads. I have seen numerous stories filed by reporters who are driving in the South who are in touch with the IDF by mobile phone to let them know they are with a convoy of cars on the road to a particular town or village and the response of the IDF is always that they can't guarantee there won't be an air strike or artillery fire aimed at them.

Interestingly because the Israelis reduced their air strikes yesterday a lot of journalists took the chance to get to places they couldn't get to before. Know who they found? Mostly the old, infirm and people who said they couldn't get out because they had no car and couldn't afford a bus or taxi to safety.

Getting out of the war zone simply cannot be impossible to pull off, considering that they have SPECIFIC warning

"Get North of the Litani River or we'll kill you" - yup, that's a very specific warning. Monstrously inhuman but very specific.


Oops! Wrong Planet
This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 07-31-2006 9:49 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Faith, posted 08-01-2006 3:09 PM MangyTiger has not yet responded

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 295 of 300 (337257)
08-01-2006 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Buzsaw
07-31-2006 11:46 PM


Re: Israel Doing The UN's Work
Resolution 1559 which as to disarm Hezbollah

More bullshit from you. Resolution 1559 does not call on the UN to disarm Hezbollah.


Oops! Wrong Planet
This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 31616
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 296 of 300 (337258)
08-01-2006 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by MangyTiger
08-01-2006 3:03 PM


Re: Escaping the war zone isn't hard
Point taken. Thanks for the correction.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by MangyTiger, posted 08-01-2006 3:03 PM MangyTiger has not yet responded

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 297 of 300 (337277)
08-01-2006 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Faith
08-01-2006 12:00 AM


Re: Media propaganda?
Muslims fake illness, pretend to be sick.

Obviously no non-Muslim has ever feigned illness before.

Video of one being carried on a stretcher that I saw years ago now, showed the stretcher being dropped, but he just got up and walked

Without seeing the video I can't comment on why this happened but I have seen this (a stretcher being dropped and the person on it walking away) with my own eyes.

The 'Tiger' part of my name is a reference to the fact I am a Season Ticket holder at the Leicester Tigers Rugby Club. In the very first game I saw when I got my Season Ticket a Wasps player was injured on the field and was being stretchered off. The stretcher was dropped and the guy walked the rest of the way to the sidelines so he could be treated.

Basically sometimes if you're ill or injured you'll take the offer of being stretchered even though you perhaps don't strictly need it. However if the stretcher bearers are so incompetent that they drop you then it's not surprising you decide to complete the rest of your journey under your own steam.


Oops! Wrong Planet
This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Faith, posted 08-01-2006 12:00 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Faith, posted 08-01-2006 9:15 PM MangyTiger has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31616
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 298 of 300 (337304)
08-01-2006 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by MangyTiger
08-01-2006 7:54 PM


Re: Media propaganda?
Obviously no non-Muslim has ever feigned illness before.

How often do they do it as an entrapment in order to kill people?

Don't bother answering. This game is endless.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by MangyTiger, posted 08-01-2006 7:54 PM MangyTiger has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 299 of 300 (337319)
08-01-2006 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by clpMINI
08-01-2006 10:41 AM


Re: I trust those sources.
clp writes:

If, while attempting to kill these MUDEROUS CRIMINALS, you inadvertently kill 60 or so innocent women and children, is it still a righteous act?

Is there an acceptable number of innocent people you can kill, as long as you were aiming at the bad guys?

LOL! If the US had stopped attacking Hitler's cities full of civilians as well as Japan who attacked us, you and I would not likely be here or if we were, we'd most assuredly be in a totally ruthless and tyrannical world.

ABE: ..........and The German and Japanese people would have not have been liberated from tyranny to become the prosperous and peaceful FREE nations they are today.

Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by clpMINI, posted 08-01-2006 10:41 AM clpMINI has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16621
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 300 of 300 (337320)
08-01-2006 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Buzsaw
08-01-2006 10:52 PM


Re: I trust those sources.
Buzsaw writes:

If the US had stopped attacking Hitler's cities full of civilians....

Many of my relatives would still be alive.


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