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Author Topic:   Lebanon In End Time Bible Prophecy
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 178 (338043)
08-04-2006 11:46 PM


There are several remarkable pre-mesianic period end time prophecies about Lebanon written some 700 or more years BC in the OT prophecy books. How do we know they are end time? By the context is the answer to that. The context of some of these are very clearly messianic period and others quite clear.
1. Zechariah a prophecy clearly by context to be fulfilled in the latter days before messianic reign prophesies in chapter 10 that After Israel is brought out of the nations they will occupy the Golan Heights and Lebanon after the trees and burnt and the land devastated. It will be in the time of severe world wide drought which I've posted about in past years here at EvC. This prophecy says the rivers of this reagion will be dried up sometime in the times of the prophecy fulfillment. For nearly 1900 years after the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus of Rome Israel were scattered worldwide and miraculously remained to be identifiable as a race/people/nation to return to their homeland, Israel.
2. Ezekiel 17 mentions some destruction of trees etc of Lebanon by a great eagle with great wings, possibly indicative of aircraft, though this prophecy is not one of the more significant ones concerning Lebanon for this time. It's an interesting one to try and discern.
3. Isaiah 10 is quite significant. It describes the restoration of Israel and in verse 34 finally flat out says "Lebanon shall fall by a mighty one."
3. In Isaiah 29 beginning with verse 17 it is prophesied tha Lebanon will be restored by the blessings of Israel in the messianic age. Here again it is implied that it's occupation will be shared by Israel where the messianic kingdom will be. This will, of course be after the destruction of the nation which was at enmity with Israel before it's destruction.
This is just one of the end time nations of prophecy. Threre are most of the other nations who are now enemies which will suffer similar destruction according to the various prophecies concerning them. This destruction does not, of course come until after they have afflicted Israel, indicating that before their destruction they will be not only all allied against Israel as per the modern day senario, but they will rise to significant power and possibly replace the US as the prominent force in the world. This is pretty well established in the prophecies that the West will diminish and the Mid Eastern and North African Muslim nations will rise to much more power and influence than they now have. They will be backed by Russia and the other nations to the north of Israel according to Ezekiel chapter 38 which is the prophetic account of what is known as Armageddon itself as per Revelation 16:16.
1. Are these prophecies being fulfilled in our days?
2. Are these prophecies and others indicative of the supernatural nature of the Biblical account as well as it's accuracy as a historical record?
3. How does the current Lebanon war factor in these prophecies and are there any clues in them as to how the Mid East crisis will come out in the end.
4. Are there any prophecies here or elsewhere that contradict what has been and is being observed in both history and current events.
I suppose this topic would be suitable for the Biblical Accuracy and Inerrancy Forum if another admin wishes to promote it.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by PaulK, posted 08-05-2006 5:42 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 4 by RickJB, posted 08-05-2006 8:58 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 173 by PaulK, posted 02-16-2008 5:19 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 178 (338077)
08-05-2006 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by PaulK
08-05-2006 5:42 AM


Re: Business as usual
PaulK writes:
1) A minor point here, Zechariah 10 refers to the return of the Lost Tribes. So we cannot say that it is being fulfilled.
I see primarily Judah and secondarily Ephraim in chapter 10. Please elaborate. I'll be outa town much of the day. Talk to you later.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by PaulK, posted 08-05-2006 5:42 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by PaulK, posted 08-05-2006 11:41 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 178 (338133)
08-05-2006 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by PaulK
08-05-2006 11:41 AM


Re: Business as usual
PaulK writes:
Ephraim is one of the two "half-tribes" (Ephraim and Manessah) and in this context is a reference to the "Lost Tribes". (The Tribes of Israel exiled by the Assyrians).
Thus the prophecy cannot be fulfilled until the Lost Tribes return..
1. It is true as per Revelation 7 and Ezekiel 37 that the lost tribes are implicated in the messianic Israel, but the kingdom will be primarily Judaic, the messianic prophesies all declaring that the messiaic king will be of the tribe of Judah and of the root of Jesse, David's father of the tribe of Judah. For the purpose of this thread and according some of the significant prophecies, the remnants of Judah will be the primary players in this emerging event.
2. Zechariah 10 specifies the house of Joseph who's sons were Ephraim and Manasseh, Ephriam being the one who received the inheritance blessing. Thus the "house" of Ephraim here is specified. Ephraim seemed to emerge as the more prominent tribe of Israel in the end.
3. There are claims that the Pakistanis, the Afgans, parts of India and elsewhere in the Mideast are remnants of the lost tribes, but I don't know how much validity there is to this. Perhaps DNA tech and other modern means of tracing geneologies, et al will factor in this or perhaps messiah will do the sorting out.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by PaulK, posted 08-05-2006 11:41 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by PaulK, posted 08-05-2006 5:54 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 178 (338139)
08-05-2006 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by PaulK
08-05-2006 5:45 PM


Re: Business as usual
PaulK writes:
it is not even a partial return of those sent into exile by the Assyrians..
Most of these prophecies do not specify the Assyrian exiled tribes. It's mosly about Judah primarily and the house of Ephraim secondarily. It appears that the lost tribes will eventually factor in, but having a significantly lesser role in the kingdom and specifically in the prophecy concerning the occupation of Lebanon.
Regardless, the context of all of these prophecies are latter day messianic time prophecies. All one need do is read them in context and you will see that the events prophesied are not historical events except the parts of them which have emerged in the history of the last century and a half and more significantly the last 60 years.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by PaulK, posted 08-05-2006 5:45 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 08-05-2006 6:21 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 178 (338192)
08-06-2006 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by PaulK
08-05-2006 6:21 PM


Re: Business as usual
PaulK writes:
I know that you keep claiming that there have been major developments in the last 60 years, but there really haven't been a lot. The establishment of Isreal as a democratic state - and not a monarchy - is about it, and there is a lot more that needs to happen.
Yes, more is to happen. My statements here including the OP certainly do not claim all is fulfilled. I've made that clear. My point in all this is to show that there have indeed been major developments in the past half century + which are on track with the prophecies so far implicating the likelihood that the prophecies are credible and the Biblical record is reliable. The more we add to the list of on track stuff such as the drawing of the nations into the Mideast and present Lebanon events, et al, the more likely the unfulfilled ones will follow suit.
1. The European Holocaust and antisemitism drives the Jews out of Europe with the wastelands of their national heritage opening up for them.
2. Many willingly sold their land in the region to the Israeli immigrants, confident that they could take it by force later, but that backfired.
3. The nation is reborn in 1948.
4. A number of aggressive wars started by Israel's enemies continued to add territory to Israel with defeat to the enemy under great odds in favor of the enemy, especially in the earlier wars.
5. Russia opens up to allow many Jews to leave.
6. As per the prophecies, Israel becomes surrounded with enemies bent on their destruction.
7. The expansion and influence of Islam draws an ever increasing interest and focus to the Mideast, drawing nations into the region and it's conflicts as per the prophecies, Zech 14 for just one example.
8. After taking the Sinai Israel returns it to Egypt. This is significant because it is not part of the prophesied boundaries of the future Israel. There is a specific prophecy stating that the River/brook of Egypt to the south and the Euphrates to the north will be the ultimate boundaries of the restored Israel. I'll try to find that and produce it later. That the major contention has been in the north is significant in that regard.
9 Now the prophecies concerning Lebanon appear to be coming into play. That is not to say Lebanon will be permanently occupied by Israel at this time, but that these events are significant in that regard.
10. That the wastelands of Israel will again blossom and flourish is being significantly fulfilled with Israel exporting far more than it consumes, being one of the major exporters of lush produce to Europe and other areas.
PaulK writes:
Zechariah 10 specifically refers to the returning of the Lost Tribes from many places - and Assyria is named. This it cannot be fulfilled until that happens.
I don't see that you have established that yet. That it mentions Assyria/Syria is not necessarily indicative of the lost tribes, nor is the house of Joseph or the house of Ephraim.
PaulK writes:
Indeed, verse 9 seems to assume that the exiles will remian faithful to their Hebrew origins:
9"When I scatter them among the peoples,
They will remember Me in far countries,
And they with their children will live and come back.
No. All it says is that they will 1. remember their god, Jehovah, and 2. that they will return from the far countries. The specifics of their religion are not given. Besides, their Hebrew origins and scriptures include a messianic future kingdom which the orthadox take more seriously. The NT says at the 2nd advent of Jesus to Israel their eyes will be opened (future). Did you see on the news, the Jewish soldier standing on the tank of battle doing his prayer ritual between actions, bobbing his head as he prayed? That was on Fox earlier in the war.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 08-05-2006 6:21 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 08-06-2006 3:36 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 16 by MangyTiger, posted 08-06-2006 1:54 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 178 (338321)
08-06-2006 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by MangyTiger
08-06-2006 1:54 PM


Re: Business as usual
MT writes:
According to Bank Of Israel figures Israel has been running an average monthly trade deficit since at least 2002 (over $601 million a month in 2006 up to the middle of July - and I doubt the situation in Lebanon has helped).
I was referring to what they grow, saying in that statement that the wasteland would blossom. I believe I am correct in stating they export more produce than they consume.
I stand corrected on being a major European exporter, but I'd say they do quite well with such a tiny nation which was a wasteland not long ago providing over a fifth as much produce as both the US and Canada combined.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by MangyTiger, posted 08-06-2006 1:54 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by MangyTiger, posted 08-07-2006 1:30 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 178 (338323)
08-07-2006 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by PaulK
08-06-2006 3:36 AM


Re: Business as usual
PaulK writes:
If you seriously want to argue that "Ephraim" is a reference to the half-tribe of Ephraim alone and not to the Lost Tribes as a whole, go ahead. It doesn't help you because Ephraim is one of the Lost Tribes and the only possible candidates produced so far are allegedly from the Tribe of Dan.
The fat lady hasn't sang yet on the returnees and identification of them. Judah is largly back and that's the important thing since they are the millenial kingdom tribe.
PaulK writes:
You just managed to contradict yourself. Thee problem is that they DON'T remember Yahweh (and they certainly can't remember a poor attempt at a German transliteration of His name !)
1. I did not contradict myself. I said they will remember their god, Jehovah. Many of them (the orthodox) do now and when the messiah returns all the remnant that survives the tribulation will remember him.
2. Jehovah is the nearest modern English equivalent of YHWH as recognized by nearly all the linguist translators of the Hebrew to English in most of the versions of the Bible. If I were to move to Israel, I'd likely use the Hebrew word, but I'm not.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 08-06-2006 3:36 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2006 2:33 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 178 (338389)
08-07-2006 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by PaulK
08-07-2006 2:33 AM


Re: Business as usual
Paul writes:
But Judah being back isn't enough to fulfil the prophecy. And there is no evidence that the Lost Tribes will really be restored. Sp we can't say that the prophecy has been or even will be fulfilled.
Judah being back is fulfilling the prophecies, many of them. How many times do I need to remind you that the prophecies are being fulfilled and not all completed yet. Again, that this remarkable thing has happened, lends credibility to the yet unfulfilled prophecies.
Question: How likely do you think it would be for a certain tribe of Native Americans to be scattered worldwide nearly two thousand years ago and still be identifiable as that certain tribe to return to their specific location from which they were scattered after nearly two milleniums? That's how remarkable this phenomenon is.
Then there's all the other corroborating prophecies either already fulfilled or being fulfilled on track. Imo, unbelievers have no excuse for being unbelievers. They are as bulligerant as the Jewish Pharasees and Saducees who saw the miracles of Jesus and yet sought to kill him and his apostles. That is not to say you people want to kill anyone. I'm simply using that as an analogy of how they choose to disregard the evidence made available to them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2006 2:33 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2006 4:30 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 08-07-2006 7:39 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 178 (338451)
08-07-2006 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by ringo
08-07-2006 7:39 PM


Ringo writes:
I don't see how you can consider partially-fulfilled prophecies to be fulfilled prophecies.
It's kind of like seeing a sign that says "New York" and assuming that you're near New York. But you might be in Missouri and the sign might just indicate the exit to New York.
A "sign" of fulfilled prophecy doesn't necessarily indicate that the prophecy is near fulfillment.
Ringo, my statement was not pertaining to one particular prophecy. It pertained to many prophecies, some of which have been completely fulfilled and some of which are partially fulfilled in such a manner that you can see the light at the end of the tunnel so to speak.
For example, Israel has become a nation after nearly 2 milleniums of dispersion. One could say that is a fulfilled prophecy. Zechariah 14:2 says Jehovah will draw all nations against Jerusalem to battle in the latter days. That has not been fulfilled but is being fulfilled in that the nations, for the most part are against Jerusalem/Judah and multilateral forces of the nations are being assembled and moving into the Mideast region. Jerusalem is becoming the focus of the news very often these days whereas 200 years ago nobody would have taken these prophecies literally since it would seem to them as pretty much of an impossibility.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 08-07-2006 7:39 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by ringo, posted 08-07-2006 11:53 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 178 (340666)
08-16-2006 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by ringo
08-07-2006 11:53 PM


Ringo writes:
My point was that the very idea of "partially-fulfilled prophecy" is inherently nonsensical. Note the analogy. A "sign", even if interpreted correctly, is just a sign - it's not the destination.
If you want to reject the fact that certain aspects of some prophecies have been fulfilled, that's your perrogative. I'm not going to waste my time arguing semantics with you on this. For us who've done our homework on this the end time prophecies are rapidly emerging into focus loud and clear.
Ringo writes:
No, one could not - until all of the details of the prophecy are fulfilled. What if Israel collapses again and is dispersed for another two millenia? That would render the current "partial fulfillment" irrelevant.
If, if, if. You can "if" yourself into hyperskepticism if you microskepticize (buzwords) every jot and tittle. I go with what we've got and change my mind when the events warrant change. With all the corroborating stuff going on simultaneously, you are hard pressed to refute the evidence.
Ringo writes:
You almost have it. That prophecy has not been fulfilled. You are assuming incorrectly that it "is being fulfilled". What if "all nations" decide to side with Israel? That would render the current "partial fulfilment" irrelevant.
All nations side with Israel? You gotta be kidding. Israel is usually hard pressed in the UN for support from more than one or two. LOL!
Ringo writes:
Jerusalem has been the focus of the news "very often" for as long as I can remember. After half a century, the sense of impending doom is losing it's edge.
Half century? As long as you can remember? How old are you? Israel has been in the hands of Gentiles for about 19 centuries, seldom ever having any significance in world events.
I asked you once before about Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet Earth and I don't think you ever answered. Lindsey had it all mapped out with Russia invading Israel, blah, blah, blah, exactly like the Bible foretold... except that his ideas seem rather out of date now.
How often do you guys have to get it wrong before you begin to question your interpretation?
There's a lot of Hal Lindsey that I'm not in agreement on, but he's right about Russia. Russia has consistently sided with the enemies of Israel just as they did lately concerning Lebanon's Hezbollah and imo will in the end be with the Armageddon invaders for the demise of Israel and particularly Jerusalem. When Russia changes their tune on this, I'll change mine, but don't hold your breath, mefriend.
Ringo writes:
Well, no. Two hundred years ago, Napoleon was the "prophesied" AntiChrist. Remember his campaign in Egypt?
He couldn't have been scripturally. Israel wasn't even in their nation and gentiles occupied Jerusalem. That's what I mean that all the corroborating stuff must be moving into focus as it is today. It wasn't so back then and those deluded few who were claiming otherwise simply hadn't done their homework on the prophesies.
Escatology is a science. You need to do the homework with lots of study, work and serious prayerful thought to harmonize them all.
Ringo writes:
There is nothing new under the sun, especially the idea that prophecy is going to be fulfilled "in our time". At least wait for complete fulfilment. Don't grasp at every straw.
I'm not grasping at straws. You're stumbling over the beams, all the while denying they're there.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by ringo, posted 08-07-2006 11:53 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by MangyTiger, posted 08-16-2006 11:21 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 08-17-2006 2:57 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 35 by sidelined, posted 08-19-2006 6:53 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 178 (341462)
08-19-2006 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by MangyTiger
08-16-2006 11:21 PM


MT writes:
Well if you consider that since Israel was established it has been an ally or client state of the US (or vice versa some might say) and the USSR and the US were engaged in the Cold War this isn't in the least surprising. The enemies of Israel at the time (Egypt, Syria, Lybia et al) were clients of the USSR. It was just a function of the superpower politics of the post-WW II era.
The bottom line is that some 2500 years ago it was prophesied to be so way out in the future end times and for the first time in history it's being observed.
It was Russian built anti-tank sophisticated missiles which were supplied to nations friendly to Hezbollah and used by Hezbollah to surprise the Israeli army with alarming loss of their tanks in this war. It's business as usual with the terrorists using Russian arms just as they have for decades and wars past. {abe:Long range) missles are also being supplied by Russia. Russia consistently votes against Israel along with Islamic nations.
MT writes:
Ok so how is the Red Army going to get to Israel buz? A quick glance at a map suggests they will have to go through Turkey and/or Iraq. Turkey is a member of NATO - after 9/11 the members of NATO affirmed that an attack on one of them would be considered an attack on all. So before they get anywhere near Israel they are in a shooting war with the US and the rest of the NATO countries. If they manage to avoid that that do you really think the US is going to let them roll through Iraq after all the pain you've gone through to get your military established there?
1. We're establishing a Shehite regime in Iraq, whether we admit it or not. Hezbollah is the underlying fundamentalism of Sheih which will eventually prevail as it has in other nations like Iran.
2. As I understand the prophecies, Turkey (Islamic majority) will eventually be among the participants against Israel. The nations to the north of Israel are all implicated. Give it some time. We see it all emerging and Armageddon is a ways out yonder yet, but clearly emerging as prophesied. The Lebanese conflict now on going is a major development in this fulfillment of prophecy, for it is one of the things which is a MUST for fulfillment.
MT writes:
Of course Russia could just nuke the place off the face of the planet (it is one of only about three countries with a bigger nuclear arsenal than Israel and - maybe - the means to deliver them after all) - but does anybody see that as a realistic possibility?
Several prophecies do sound very nuclear. That would be for another topic, but yes, very realistically possible and very likely.
MT writes:
Russia has moved on. It's interests now are in joining the WTO and building itself back into a global power ecomically using the huge natural resources (especially gas) it has. Maybe once they've done this and/or Putin dies or is replaced things will change - but I see no reason to think getting involved in an invasion of Israel would be in their plans.
Russia and Israel have always been at odds. Israel is the only real nation relatively near to Russia which thwarts their ambitions. Islam is becoming a significant factor in Russian affairs with significant influence and power. This will increase as it will worldwide.
MT writes:
Actually I've just thought about this. In the modern world why would anybody except the surrounding Arab states have the slightest interest in invading Isreal? There's no sensible reason at all for any non-Middle East State to do it, quite apart from the logistical difficulties in getting there.
It's the oil leverage which major Islamic nations enjoy and the wealth which they are ammasing via it. Why, for example does the US cowtow to one of the most brutal imperialistic Islamic nations, i.e. Saudi Arabia? If it weren't for the oil, we'd be demanding some human rights there also, but we've allowed our radicals here to ban production of our own vast energy sources so we're subject to blackmail by these Islamic nations.
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by MangyTiger, posted 08-16-2006 11:21 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 08-19-2006 6:49 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 37 by MangyTiger, posted 08-19-2006 9:25 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 178 (341467)
08-19-2006 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
08-17-2006 10:55 AM


Whatever

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 08-17-2006 10:55 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 08-19-2006 6:56 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 178 (342199)
08-21-2006 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by sidelined
08-19-2006 6:53 PM


Re: And now for something completely different
Hi Sidelined. I've (abe: proposed) another thread to accomodate your request as it would be too off topic for this one.
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by sidelined, posted 08-19-2006 6:53 PM sidelined has not replied

  
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