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Author Topic:   What makes a terrorist a terrorist?
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 286 of 300 (338265)
08-06-2006 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Chiroptera
08-06-2006 2:23 PM


Chiroptera writes:
Actually, the analogy I think of is a group of police officers firing into a crowd of people to try to take out an unseen gunman.
Yes, there are any number of analogies - and they all produce the same conclusion.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Chiroptera, posted 08-06-2006 2:23 PM Chiroptera has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 287 of 300 (338266)
08-06-2006 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Faith
08-06-2006 2:40 PM


Faith writes:
Jesus forgives REPENTANT sinners, not unrepentant murderers.
I didn't say a word about forgiveness. I said Jesus had sympathy for all sinners - even unrepentant ones. You called that "mindless."
Unbelievable how you misapply scripture.

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This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 288 of 300 (338270)
08-06-2006 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Faith
08-06-2006 2:05 PM


Re: Searching for some logic in there.
What a bunch of lies to whitewash murder.
I assume you can point to those lies I used to whitewash murder or are you just making up your version of what folk actually say again?
Hezbollah is a real threat to Israel and determined to become a bigger threat.
They are a threat, not much of a threat to Israel but definitely a threat to some Israelis. No one has said they are not.
They aren't "hiding," they have put themselves in position to attack Israel and they committed the act of aggression of kidnapping Israeli soldiers.
And they claim that Israel is holding Lebanese in prison. They claim that Israel is the aggressor.
Israel is within its rights to demolish their ability to kill more Israelis.
Lebanon is a sovereign state. Israel has attacked Lebanon.
Has Lebanon attacked Israel?
When one sovereign state attacks another sovereign state is it or is it not considered agression and an act of war?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 2:05 PM Faith has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 289 of 300 (338272)
08-06-2006 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Faith
08-06-2006 2:35 PM


I have no sympathy for murderers who set up their own civilian population to be murdered for the sake of PR.
You act like Israel isn't in control of their own actions. Sorry, but if Israel is all too willing to dance on Hizballah's strings, then they're to blame for the deaths, even if that was Hizballah's strategy all along.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 2:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 3:25 PM crashfrog has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 290 of 300 (338275)
08-06-2006 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by crashfrog
08-06-2006 3:19 PM


They don't shoot KNOWING the civilians are in the way. Good grief. You guys will come up with anything to avoid recognizing the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by crashfrog, posted 08-06-2006 3:19 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by crashfrog, posted 08-06-2006 3:27 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 292 by jar, posted 08-06-2006 3:33 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 293 by Silent H, posted 08-06-2006 3:52 PM Faith has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 291 of 300 (338276)
08-06-2006 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Faith
08-06-2006 3:25 PM


They don't shoot KNOWING the civilians are in the way.
Of course they do, Faith. Do you think the Israelis are idiots or something? Is it really beyond your conception that they might suspect that civilians live in cities?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 3:25 PM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 292 of 300 (338277)
08-06-2006 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Faith
08-06-2006 3:25 PM


They don't shoot KNOWING the civilians are in the way. Good grief. You guys will come up with anything to avoid recognizing the truth.
A terrorist commits an act of terrorism. The terrorist then is seen running into a shopping mall.
Is is acceptable to then blow up the mall along with the people who might be in it to get the terrorist?
Are all Lebanese terrorists?
Are all Lebanese living in southern Lebanon terrorists?
If the answer to either of those is no, what is the justification for Israel blowing them up?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 3:25 PM Faith has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 293 of 300 (338280)
08-06-2006 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Faith
08-06-2006 3:25 PM


They don't shoot KNOWING the civilians are in the way.
I might ask if you think Israel would or should attack their own communities in the same way they have Lebanese communities if Hezbollah managed to sneak in that far... if not, why not?
In addition, you have yet to address the completely nonmoral nonlegal question I posed to you regarding Israel's actions. Out of all the possible military options at their disposal, how does it make any sense to move forward with a plan that results in losses for their military at essentially a 1-1 ratio with a vastly inferior enemy force, while inflicting high casualties among innocent civilian populations?
I'm just not getting how it works for you even if you are ardently pro Israel and excusing them on all other grounds.

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 3:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 7:40 PM Silent H has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 294 of 300 (338281)
08-06-2006 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Faith
08-06-2006 1:12 PM


This is what makes Israel the victim, not the action itself, not the number of deaths but the motivation, the purpose, which is purely defensive-- to remove Hezbollah's threat to Israel.
So to your mind Israel could legitimately use WMDs on Lebanon, if they felt that would end the threat posed by Hezbollah? If not, why not?

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 1:12 PM Faith has not replied

Theus
Inactive Member


Message 295 of 300 (338286)
08-06-2006 5:06 PM


Underdog does not mean victim
I'm struck at the relatively simple grouping, saying that Hezbollah and Israel are equally guilty just doesn't strike me as accurate.
Exactly what must Israel do to be removed from such scathing criticism (aside from having better PR)? If you have members of a militant religious extremist group kidnap two of your soldiers and kill a third, then proceed to rain rockets down on your civilian populations, how do you respond? A ground force, as mentioned before will result in high civilian casualties. An air strike has the benefit of being more selective and helps to isolate individual targets, still not the ideal but certainly better than other alternatives.
And, bear in mind, all this is being done while katyush rockets are crashing down in cities across the northern 20-30% of your country (bear in mind that this also has a high population concentration as well). Both Israel and Lebanon have small land areas, war there is quite different than what most of us in Europe and America can imagine.
Without a doubt there were critical early steps that could have been taken to avoid the conflict that exists now. But for those critical of Israel, what would you do differently over the past 3 weeks?
Tiens,
Theus

‘ ‘ — — ‘

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Chiroptera, posted 08-06-2006 5:17 PM Theus has not replied
 Message 297 by crashfrog, posted 08-06-2006 5:37 PM Theus has not replied
 Message 299 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 7:41 PM Theus has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 296 of 300 (338289)
08-06-2006 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Theus
08-06-2006 5:06 PM


Re: Underdog does not mean victim
quote:
Exactly what must Israel do to be removed from such scathing criticism....
For starters, announce unequivocably that the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip will become part of a truly independent Palestinian state, with the negotiations being concerned with water rights, mutual security needs, and the resolution of claims by Palestinian families who have lost property in Isreal.
Making good faith efforts to eventually cease being an occupying power will go a long way to moving Israel toward the moral high ground.

"These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not."
-- Ernie Cline

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 297 of 300 (338294)
08-06-2006 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Theus
08-06-2006 5:06 PM


Re: Underdog does not mean victim
If you have members of a militant religious extremist group kidnap two of your soldiers and kill a third, then proceed to rain rockets down on your civilian populations, how do you respond?
Evacuate the cities. Infiltrate the groups.
Get the US to loan over a few of those 747's with the chemical-argon antimissile laser in the nose. They've had laser-based antimissile systems that can fry an albatross 20 miles away, from a laser system you can cart around on the back of a truck. We can't be talking about over-the-horizon rockets, right?
This is such a technical challenge that the only solution is to bomb children and ambulances?
But for those critical of Israel, what would you do differently over the past 3 weeks?
How about this: nothing.
Why not? Have the actions of Israel ameliorated the rocket problem? I don't see that it has, to any degree. In the meantime hundreds of innocents are dead. Maybe the thing to do would have been to do something, anything except exactly what Hizballah counted on them doing - a traditional Israeli disproportionate response.
I don't pretend to be a tactical genius. My name isn't Ender Wiggin. But I do know that the fundamental first rule of strategy is "don't do what your enemy is counting on you to do."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Theus, posted 08-06-2006 5:06 PM Theus has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 298 of 300 (338305)
08-06-2006 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Silent H
08-06-2006 3:52 PM


I am not a military strategist, and all you armchair strategists do not impress me either. All that matters is that Israel is acting in self defense and Hezbollah is a bunch of murderers and siding against Israel is the wrong thing to do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Silent H, posted 08-06-2006 3:52 PM Silent H has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by crashfrog, posted 08-06-2006 7:51 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 299 of 300 (338306)
08-06-2006 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Theus
08-06-2006 5:06 PM


Re: Underdog does not mean victim
Exactly. Underdog does not mean victim. It may mean hateful vengeful murdering suicidal madmen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Theus, posted 08-06-2006 5:06 PM Theus has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 300 of 300 (338307)
08-06-2006 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Faith
08-06-2006 7:40 PM


All that matters is that Israel is acting in self defense and Hezbollah is a bunch of murderers and siding against Israel is the wrong thing to do.
Too bad your attempts to prove that have been so inept.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 7:40 PM Faith has not replied

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