To "Believe in God/Jesus" Means

Remember the OP is concerning the difference between how we are asked to believe in God, as opposed to, how we believe in a living person. We are dealing with general Christianity.With a living person we have behavior, action, words, etc. to physically interact with and have confidence in.Christianity does not provide anything for us to trust or have confidence in, except for what the clergy present.We only have the middleman, so to speak, to "believe in".If we take out the middleman what is left?God. So now we are back to existence, because there are no physical actions to have confidence in.So today believing in God means to believe that he exists outside of the books, period.
The rest is believing what the religion presents or IOW having confidence in people.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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I have no idea what that means.

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Characters exist within the imagination of their creator and within the medium in which they are presented to society. Characters such as Aslan, Harry Potter, Scrooge, Captain James T. Kirk, etc. only exist within the various mediums in which they are presented and in the minds of those who have encountered them in these various mediums.So believing in the Christian God today means to believe that he exists outside of the medium in which he is presented, namely the Christian Bible.I know God exists within the Bible.

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I'm not sure about that either. If by "The rest is believing what the religion presents" that you might believe in the lessons found in the theology, things like treating others as you would like to be treated yourself, then I'd probably agree.

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The list in the OP is what I'm referring to as the rest, not the actual lessons dealing with right behavior.To believe in God means:
to believe we are under Him, responsible to Him, accountable to Him.
to realize that He has spoken.
to see that life has a meaning.
to believe that He is all-powerful and that we are His subjects.
to experience real happiness and joy.
our lives and actions must reflect His existence.
believing that life is basically good and worth living.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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It sounds to me like you are observing there are (at least) two different kinds of christianity.

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Christianity today is a religion of creed. They are more concerned with what we think than what we do. They hope that creed leads to deed.The OT (Judaism) presents God as a God of law and therefore more concerned with what we do than with what we think. Deed leads to creed.In the NT, the Jewish part which called for Jews to repent dealt with behavior. The Gentile portions dealt with what to think mixed with behavior.Christianity today is inconsistent.As a parent, I know that my husband and I have to be consistent in our behavior and in the training and disciplining of our child.Christianity is like dysfunctional parents. The child is not given clear instructions and when searching for clearer direction, the child is given conflicting and varying instructions.As Phatboy put it in his thread on What is an "Ex Believer", anyway?

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I maintain that those who used to believe in God never actually experienced meeting Him. If they had, they would know it!

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Unfortunately no Christian can tell you how to meet God.
No Christian can tell you if you are "believing in" God correctly.
No Christian can tell you if your experience is truly with God.I do feel that Jesus and the Nazarenes followed Judaism.I think the stress on belief started with Paul.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Thank you I do like the way they teach with stories. The moral of the story is clear. The method reminds me of the Native American stories I've read.I would have a problem with their food laws though.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

The point being that clergy, evangelist, or whoever is teaching Christianity don't have one concrete answer as to what it means to "believe in" God.The meaning changes to suit the purpose.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Hey Arach,My journey to understanding the Bible took me back to its roots, Judaism. My reasoning was that the original belonged to them and I wanted to see how they presented its teachings to their people.In the course of this journey, I have come across many Jewish web sites. The Jewish perspective is very interesting.Torah.org is a nice one. Many essays answering various questions today.
Distanced from Falsehood mentions the wife/sister episode you mention, but is dealing with falsehood. I think in one thread dealing with this wife/sister deal someone asked why Abraham didn't get in trouble for lying.I would enjoy discussing Genesis stories from the Jewish viewpoint, if I can find it. I haven't looked at this particular situation, but will see what I can find.Needless to say the parables and stories I read weren't strictly from the Bible.I still find some things I don't agree with, but they at least back up what they teach.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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It seems to me there is a progression in how God relates to mankind. Sort of a maturing process.

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I belive there is a maturing process.Just as offspring mature to eventually be independent of their parents, so to is mankind maturing to eventually be independent of the need for a parental God figure and accompanying rituals.I feel that ex-believers have cut the apron string so to speak.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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But do you believe that in the distant future, given enough time, mankind will eventually completely abandon all religion?

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Don't know, but it is a possibility.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Welcome to my thread oblivionlord.If you have problems with what AdminJar has said, please discuss it with him in the the Moderation Thread, not in my thread.If you are interested in reviving this thread, please make sure your posts keep in line with the topic of this thread as described in Message 1.Thanks and welcome to EvC.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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I think we can extend this meaning of belief and attribute it to faith.

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Faith and belief both deal with trust, IMO. But there has to be something to trust.

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We would commonly say that we 'know' that humans have landed on the moon. We would say that its a fact. But what are we basing this fact on? We couldn't really say that it was a fact unless we were there.

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But I can sit at a table with Neil Armstrong and discuss his moon walking adventure. (Have actually) As I listen, I decide whether I feel he is telling the truth or not. Do I trust that he is speaking the truth?

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However, if I examine the evidence of this and that, I am able to make a decision on the grounds of faith that is informed.

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So you trust the evidence that you have seen or heard?

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I think that is one aspect of, "Do you believe in Jesus." But I think the underlying assumption within the begging question is, "Do you believe the account of Jesus? Do you believe that He was/is who He says He is?" That's what I've gathered over the years.

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This thread is so old I've probably lost whatever my original train of thought was, but believing the account or believing who he says he is really means believing those who wrote the accounts and believing what they said he supposedly said. Then there's believing what the clergy interpret those writings to say.So we have to trust unknown authors concerning the account of his life and what he supposedly said or the preacher's interpretation.

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I would agree with this.

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But all those things are more like trusting a concept as opposed to the actual person or being.It is more like we are to believe in what God or Jesus has come to stand for and not necessarily the actual beings.

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Nobody can come to God without some basis of faith.

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This sounds like believing is seeing, not seeing is believing.

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You believe that your husband loves you because he says it and because he adorns you with gifts to manifest his apparent love for you. But on some level it is required of you to believe it. And without your belief that he is being honest, then it would just be unrequited love.

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But his actions have to reflect his words. Gifts don't show love. His actions are what I would trust, not just his words. There has to be something to base the trust on, which I think was my reasoning for starting this thread.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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You feel that you don't have sufficient reason to base a belief on God, but i do. So, there are only two options at work here. Either I'm totally incorrect in my assessment about God, or you have yet to find Him.

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Not sure why you've made the assumption that I don't have a personal relationship with God, but God has always been a part of my life.I think part of why I started this thread is to take a closer look at Christian catch phrases. People say them, but the meanings are varied. Just like the list I gave in Message 1. How do any of those deal with trust and what are people today supposedly trusting? Also see Message 6, which brings out a little more of what I was thinking.So you agree that there has to be something to trust.Taking what you personally have seen and heard concerning God or Jesus, how does that trust lead to the meanings in Message 1?

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That's why its important in understanding how the Bible came about, the impossible odds for mere humans to 'invent' what is actually written. You see, most people claim to have read the Bible, but most really haven't.

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I do understand how the Bible came about and I have read it, many times.

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Seeing isn't always believing. Case in point, some people see the intricacy of God in the cosmos while others see capricious disorder.

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That's believing is seeing.

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The Being of God, if God exists, would concievably be inconvieable!

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Why would God be inconceivable? If God was inconceivable, then writings concerning God wouldn't exist.

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No they don't. He could have ulterior motives for al you know. It takes a level of trust and faith for you to understand that love.

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The words and the actions need to be consistent or in agreement. If my husband's actions are contrary to his words or vice versa, it is cause for closer examination before trust is given.Example: A man says he loves me and showers me with gifts, but he doesn't spend time with me or do things that I enjoy besides what he enjoys. He says all the right things, but his behavior doesn't reflect what he is saying. This person I am wary of.Now we have a man who says he loves me, but joins me in events that I enjoy and remembers what type of pizza I like. I may not get presents, but I have his presence. This is a man who loves me and wants to be with me, not just have me. His behavior reflects his love. This person I trust and love.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz