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Author Topic:   Let us reason together.
drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 152 (32310)
02-15-2003 1:02 AM


I have looked at the site. The first question I would ask is, "How could there be life without a designer?" Its like looking at a building. Was the building thrown together by an explosion in a brick factory only using time and chance, or was there a desginer who planned everything ahead of time? I won't cut & paste if you without a link explain to me what evolution is? How you have interpreted it? Please give me the best evidence for evolution and I will give you the best evidence for creation.

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drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 152 (32502)
02-17-2003 8:08 PM


So do you believe that animals change into other animals? Evolution is not science. Its a belief. So called scientific dates cannot work. Looking at a dinosaur bone or whatever it doesn't have a little tag on it saying, "Hi! I'm 10 million years old." Look at the heavens. Then look at a human being. Look at a single cell in the body. The living God clearly says in scripture, "The fool says in his heart there is no God." He says come to me, not us saying to God come to me. There is so much evidence of the creator that He says we are without excuse. It truly has to do with our hearts. Choosing to believe that we evolved by chance is not correct. Its like saying, "Look at earth. It evolved by chance." Even though there can be only one truth we still believe what we want. I have. Its like saying, "I'm going to jump out of a window. I know the truth is I'll hit the ground, though I believe I will not." If God is creator that means were accountable to Him. If not, there is no absolute. You can do what you want. We love sin because we all have sinned. The flesh. If Jesus Christ is the way, truth and life He says we have to repent to receive the eternal blessing and inheritance. I was the same way. Living for this temporary life, not the eternal. The eternal grace, love and peace we can have in Jesus Christ is greater than anything else.

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drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 152 (32695)
02-19-2003 8:01 PM


Schrafinator or any others,

If you would please answer these questions for me I will deffinently answer your questions. Thank you.

Where did the space for the universe come from?

Where did matter come from?

Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?

How did matter get so perfectly organized?

Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?

When, where, why, and how did life come from dead matter?

When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?

With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?

Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kindsince this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to survive, or the species? How do you explain this?)

How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)

Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove a common Creator instead of a common ancestor?

Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true?

When, where, why, and how did:
Single-celled plants become multi-celled? (Where are the two and three-celled intermediates?)
Single-celled animals evolve?
Fish change to amphibians?
Amphibians change to reptiles?
Reptiles change to birds? (The lungs, bones, eyes,reproductive organs, heart, method of locomotion, body covering, etc., are all very different!)

How did the intermediate forms live?

When, where, why, how, and from what did:
Whales evolve?
Sea horses evolve?
bats evolve?
Eyes evolve?

Ears evolve?

Hair, skin, feathers, scales, nails, claws, etc., evolve?

Which evolved first how, and how long, did it work without the others)?
The digestive system, the food to be digested, the appetite, the ability to find and eat the food, the digestive juices, or the body’s resistance to its own digestive juice (stomach, intestines, etc.)?
The drive to reproduce or the ability to reproduce?
The lungs, the mucus lining to protect them, the throat, or the perfect mixture of gases to be breathed into the lungs?
DNA or RNA to carry the DNA message to cell parts?
The termite or the flagella in its intestines that actually digest the cellulose?
The plants or the insects that live on and pollinate the plants?
The bones, ligaments, tendons, blood supply, or muscles to move the bones?
The nervous system, repair system, or hormone system?
The immune system or the need for it?

There are many thousands of examples of symbiosis that defy an evolutionary explanation. Why must we teach students that evolution is the only explanation for these relationships?

How would evolution explain mimicry? Did the plants and animals develop mimicry by chance, by their intelligent choice, or by design?

When, where, why, and how did man evolve feelings? Love, mercy, guilt, etc. would never evolve in the theory of evolution.

*How did photosynthesis evolve?

*How did thought evolve?

*How did flowering plants evolve, and from that?

*What kind of evolutionist are you? Why are you not one of the other eight or ten kinds?

What would you have said fifty years ago if I told you I had a living coelacanth in my aquarium?

*Is there one clear prediction of macroevolution that has proved true?

*What is so scientific about the idea of hydrogen as becoming human?

*Do you honestly believe that everything came from nothing?

After you have answered the preceding questions, please look carefully at your answers and thoughtfully consider the following questions.

Are you sure your answers are reasonable, right, and scientifically provable, or do you just believe that it may have happened the way you have answered? (Do these answers reflect your religion or your science?)

Do your answers show more or less faith than the person who says, "God must have designed it"?

Is it possible that an unseen Creator designed this universe? If God is excluded at the beginning of the discussion by your definition of science, how could it be shown that He did create the universe if He did?

Is it wise and fair to present the theory of evolution to students as fact?

What is the end result of a belief in evolution (lifestyle, society, attitude about others, eternal destiny, etc.)?

Do people accept evolution because of the following factors?
It is all they have been taught.
They like the freedom from God (no moral absolutes, etc.).
They are bound to support the theory for fear of losing their job or status or grade point average.
They are too proud to admit they are wrong.
Evolution is the only philosophy that can be used to justify their political agenda.

Should we continue to use outdated, disproved, questionable, or inconclusive evidences to support the theory of evolution because we don’t have a suitable substitute (Piltdown man, recapitulation, archaeopteryx, Lucy, Java man, Neanderthal man, horse evolution, vestigial organs, etc.)?

Should parents be allowed to require that evolution not be taught as fact in their school system unless equal time is given to other theories of origins (like divine creation)?

What are you risking if you are wrong? As one of my debate opponents said, "Either there is a God or there is not. Both possibilities are frightening."

Why are many evolutionists afraid of the idea of creationism being presented in public schools? If we are not supposed to teach religion in schools, then why not get evolution out of the textbooks? It is just a religious worldview.

Aren’t you tired of faith in a system that cannot be true? Wouldn’t it be great to know the God who made you, and to accept His love and forgiveness?

Would you be interested, if I showed you from the Bible, how to have your sins forgiven and how to know for sure that you are going to Heaven?


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drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 152 (32789)
02-20-2003 10:54 PM


Schrafinator,

FROM THE EVOLUTION SITE
Evolution is like a game of rock, paper, scissors... which one is best?

Thats terrible. It sounds like the origin of prejudice! Survival of the fittest. I believe there are changes, but where is the evidence for new information in a new species? 160 million years ago dinosaurs ruled the earth? Where is the evidence of this observation?

FROM THE EVOLUTION SITE
When bony, muscular fins evolved, it was inevitable that the fish would use this ability to eventually go up onto dry land to exploit that untapped food resource. A million years might have passed with this species making only brief, occasional excursions onto land. Then came amphibians, with moist skins who still had to lay their eggs in water, then reptiles who could further colonize the land with watertight skins and watertight eggs-- what an important step that was. Then mammals and birds both arose from reptiles, able to produce heat internally, but the birds (and two species of mammals) continued to lay eggs. All this would be impossible to witness within the whole history of human life. But it's not impossible for this to happen in, say, hundreds of millions of years

Sir, where is the evidence?

Crocodiles haven't evolved much in the last 200 million years, but that's rare to find a species so well-fitted that it does not change over time. In this sense, nearly every fossil ever uncovered represents a transition to another species (except those species which resulted in extinction).

Sir, where is the evidence?

For evolution to take place, hundreds of millions of years must pass. Radiometric Dating methods ("Carbon 14 Dating") - are the means by which we know that the earth is incredibly old. The claims that these methods are unreliable is untrue.

How can you date a dinosaur fossil? Were you there? In fact there are over 500 "living fossils". Animals that are still living.

The theory of evolution does not address the issue of God, either positively or negatively. The theory of evolution, like any scientific theory, certainly does not need the intervention of a deity, and there are many evolutionists who choose not to speculate about the involvement of God, for a number of reasons-- chiefly among them that there is no evidence to support such a notion, and scientific theories by definition need to be constructed on purely mechanistic, physical processes. On the other hand, there are evolutionists who choose to view the theory as the method by which God placed life on this planet. As this is America, they have the right to believe such. The decision whether or not to incorporate God into evolution is a personal one, based on prior beliefs.

Is it possible that the Bible might explain the origin of life?

Schrafinator,

I believe the greatest question I have is how could we just come from nothing without design? Scientifically it just does not make sense. In the beginning were the particles? Maybe you have a lot of anger from things in your life. I have. Most of my life. Things that happened from a parent or just things that have made you wonder how there could be a God of love? I dont know. I struggled with that my whole life and it just was destroying me. I have such peace now in Christ. Thats why I believe God created everything perfect. He said it was very good. When He created man He had to make him with the ability for good or evil. Man turning from God brought death into the world. Christ died to free us. Another thing we could talk about is Bible prophecy if your interested. I believe there are so many things in life we can never comprehend. I believe God made the Bible so we could understand. Think about it. If He explained everything we would have a infinite amount of books. I would get a little frustrated. Wouldn't you? I believe the King(not a religious system) has spoken and He has such a wonderful eternal plan for everyone who will come to Him with a humble, broken and repentant spirit and heart. Maybe just try it. Search for Him with all your heart and you will find Him.


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drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 152 (32894)
02-22-2003 8:33 PM


Schrafinator,

The only problem is I cannot agree with evolution. I did exactly what you were aksing. I observed what was being said. I posted some statements that were said. There is no evidence. I just cannot agree because there has to be a creator. We will never understand Jesus Christ until we repent and receive what He is offering. He paid the penalty for our sin at the cross. The bible is history. Not some religious text book. Numerous prophecies have been fulfilled. It is the revelation from the only One who was there in the past. Its not man's ideas. What a wonderful message it is. We can know the creator. He paid for our sins. He is the Messiah. The Savior. We are justified by faith and repentance. To have a new heart, a new life and peace that passes understanding. Not that we become a slave but a child. A son or daughter of the living God. He has spoken through the bible. Why wont people turn to Him. Maybe a painful childhood? Or we love the things of this world more than eternity? Sin is fun, right? We have to be politically correct? I'm sorry but He has made one way. A narrow road. Wide is the path to death. Many take that way. I was on that road as well. Our choice friends.

[This message has been edited by drummachine, 02-22-2003]


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drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 152 (32979)
02-23-2003 9:24 PM


This is what I believe that site proclaimed. This is what I got out of the Webster's New World Dictionary.

evolution: 1 The gradual changes that take place as something develops into a different or more complicated form. 2 The theory that all plants and animals have developed from earlier forms by changes that took place over periods of many years and were passed on from one generation to the next.

Where is the sample? If we evolved from a common ancestor, is my grandpa curious George? Seriously, is this what evolution is? Man evolved from other species? Man is man and ape is ape just like God said. Its very sad that man would put all there faith, hope and trust in man's opinions than the creator. The only one that was there in the past. The bible fits with history, not evolution.


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drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 152 (33189)
02-25-2003 9:57 PM


If you want to insult me (drummy, etc.) thats fine. The great debate is if there is a creator or we evolved by time and chance. Truthfully what really makes sense? We see mutations yes but no animal has evolved into another. I believe there are mistakes, etc. because of sin. The world has been changed. If the bible is just a magical book are you not just closing your mind? The bible is a book of history. Many people take the bible out of context. When someone reads something in the bible it seems like they think that God is approving everything. If I am wrong please let me know. Sure there are similarities in man and ape. But they are not the same. They never have been. That doesn't prove evolution. There is more to life than are five senses. People believe that the bible is just some religious text book written by some sheep herders or whatever. Lets look at what is written.

Hebrews 11:2 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

If God explained everything we would have a infinite amount of books. Is that a problem? Is it your world or His? Here is a couple more if interested. Rather than insulting eachtother, why don't we just be mature and just look at the evidence. The facts. Science is the study of things that are made. If we evolved by time and chance did a automobile? Of course not. Does a car have a purpose? Yes. But we just evolved by time and chance? Evolution means adding information. Do we see that? No. Everything is slowing down.

Romans 1:19-20 Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Psalm 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.

Ecclesiastes 8:16-17 When I applied my mind to know wisdom and to observe man's labor on earth-his eyes not seeing sleep day or night-then I saw all God has done. No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all his efforts to search it out, man cannot discover its meaning. Even if a wise man claims he knows, he cannot really comprehend it.

test 1) matter + energy + time + chance = ? or

test 2)Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the
heavens and the earth.

Many people stumble on the 'garden of eden'. A perfect world. Man created eternally to have relationship with God. God created the ability to do good or evil. Man chose his own way then God's. The chain was broken. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ has put the chain back together. Its great to be a Christian because we know that there will be a new heaven and new earth. Has man been so indoctrinated that he only believes what his eyes see?

The ark was 45 x 75 x 450. It could easily fit them all.They only need two dogs. Not every different kind. We see all different kinds of dogs with longer or shorter noses, colors, shapes, etc. Just as man or any other animal. Are they still dogs? Yes.

[This message has been edited by drummachine, 02-25-2003]

[This message has been edited by drummachine, 02-25-2003]


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drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 152 (33892)
03-07-2003 9:14 PM


Schrafinator,

I am not a scientist but all I can say is that you can have a million PHD's. You will still not come close to the Lord God. We should praise Him for the beauty of His creation. Of course it has been corrupted by man. I cannot forget about the evidence. Is that not the most important thing? We were not there in the past. For over 2 years now I have believed in the beginning God. Because it is the only thing that makes sense. Not in the begininning the particles. Everything threw itself together? All evidence points to a creator. I have already explained to you what your page said. I have already said that evolution is not science but just an anti-God religion. I have to defrag my computer this evening. Tomorrow I will give evidence of the following topics. If you are interested please reply. Thank you.

1)Why there has to be a creator God

2)prophecy

3)Young earth

4)The bible

5)Evolution

6)And maybe a few other things


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drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 152 (33922)
03-08-2003 10:53 AM


I am going to be busy today so hopefully tonight. I'm not trying to scoff at your belief and make you angry. I am trying to reason. I am iterested in majoring in science. I have known many wonderful people that are scientists who are Christians and who are not. I was taught evolution in school. I was taught we came from nothing. We die and we are nothing. Would you all please be willing to look at the creation side as well? If we are nothing but an "evolved animal" then I believe this statement is true from the bible, "Eat and drink and be merry. For tomorrow we die."

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drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 152 (34436)
03-14-2003 10:56 PM


Answers at ANSWERSINGENESIS.ORG.

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drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 152 (34590)
03-17-2003 9:28 PM


1)I believe evolution is not science but an anti-God religion: blind faith belief

2)In the beginning was the particles? I don't think so friend.

2)Do you have a sample of a transitional form?

4)The Bible is the history book of the universe. Not just some religious text book. Prophecy is the greatest thing in the Bible. Things spoken by the living God that have taken place after they were written. Earth shaking events! What I love about the Bible is that it is plain and easy to read for anyone. Because it's true.

5)I believe in natural selection. It's not evolution. Evolution takes new information which we do not see. Things are winding down. There is a loss of information.

6)Man has always been advanced. 5,000 years ago were the Egyptians learning how to grunt when they made the hyrogliphics or the pyramids?

7)We see kinds. We see many different kinds of dogs. Are they still dogs?

8)Its been proven that layers in the earth don't take a long time but a short time. If there was a world wide flood what would you find? Billions of dead things buried under rock layers laid down by water over the earth. What do we find?

9)Cells are the most compex systems. Were they thrown together?

10)Dinosaur stories all over the world about them being recent. Most dinos were the size of chickens. There are huge lizards all over the world. We dont even know what is all in the ocean. There are claims of people finding them in the congo in Africa. Many animals are extinct because they were killed. What about dinos being killed?

11)We were not there in the past. Millions of years is an asumption. Only the designer could be there. If the Bible is true we should be able to find all our answers in it. The history of the world through eternity. If He gave us all the answers we would have so many books we would not read them all. The Bible fits so perfectly with the origins of life. 7 day creation. (We have a seven day week.) Global flood, tower of babel. All peoples have been spread all over the world. Prophecy. The history of Israel. Jesus Christ Himself. The messiah. He was either a liar, lunatic or Lord. Why would God take the punishment of our sin in such torture on a cross if He did'nt love or care for us all? Are we willing to humble ourselves and realize His ways our higher then ours? Man has corrupted His creation. Not Him. He has a perfect plan for all who will humble themselves and call on His name. He wants our heart.(Not the physical one.) Even though evidence clearly points to a creator we still will believe what we want even though the facts are there. Why? Were sinners that have fallen short. We know there is a creator. He has set eternity in our hearts. You see in magazines and things like that that it is science vs. religion. I love science. Evolution is a belief. Even scientists like Behe have changed there conclusions. There has to be a designer. With evolution there is no absolute so you can do what you want. You can be a homosexual, abort babies, etc. Created means He has rules. He is a just judge. If we reject Him, He is still faithful to all. Of course in Him is eternal blessings beyond what we can comprehend!


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drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 152 (34595)
03-17-2003 11:41 PM


What do you mean logical?

[This message has been edited by drummachine, 03-17-2003]


drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 152 (34702)
03-19-2003 3:17 PM


Schrafinator,

If you have been taught or believe evolution it says that everything was by time, death and chance. Evolution says the laws of the universe came together. Life is so complex(for example a living cell), but it was by time and chance. There is truly no evidence of the earth being billions of years old, ape-men and animals evolving into other animals. Thats why evolution is not science. We were not there in the past. You can have many variations in a kind but it is still the same kind. With evolution you need new information. Evolution says we came from a rock. God says we were made in His image. Look at DNA for example. By chance? Evolutionary theories change all the time. The Bible is concrete and it fits with the origins of life. The Bible is just a little speck of information God has given us. The same thing happens today. In the Garde of Eden Satan came to Eve and said you can be God. He offers the same fruit of sin that we all have eaten. People believe Christians are bumbling idiots but lets look at the facts. What you believe and what I believe. In the beginning was dirt or in the beginning God? What makes sense?

Q & A: Was this text written almost 2,000 years ago mans words?

2 Peter 3:3-9 Scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers(patriarchs of the Old Testament) fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." For this they willfully forget(Greek: dumb on purpose) at by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then exsisted perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.(Not bound by time, not the age of earth) The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is LONGSUFFERING toward us, not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH but that ALL should scome to repentance.

Now I don't write this to scoff at you but that maybe you will look at the seriousness of this. Are eternal destiny is in the balance!
Judgement or the eternal inheritance into the Kingdom. Evolution sounds more like a fairy tale than the Bible any day.

Have you looked at this page? answersingenesis.org


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drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 152 (34716)
03-19-2003 7:58 PM


Schrafinator,

What do you want? I have already explained my belief about evolution. Please just simply post your questions that you think I am not answering. Do you want me to explain something like natural selection? Have I not explained evolution? Have I missed something? Please be descriptive. What do you want me to explain???

What about what the Admin said. Dont give links. Plain text. Schrafinator, will you please explain that page since I guest I dont understand?

[This message has been edited by drummachine, 03-19-2003]


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drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 152 (34773)
03-20-2003 11:28 AM


Evolution: It is a humanist philosophy that says apart from an infinite creator God man determines truth. Even though man was not there in the past. Man believes he can explain the past. Man believes the incredible beauty of the ocean, mountains and the heavens are by chance. Man believes the machine of the human life system came together by chance. Man believes the air we breath came from nothing for example. Man believes he can age date the earth even though he cannot accurately. There just assumptions. Man believes everything came together by chance so there is no accountability to a creator who has clearly shown Himself. Man believes the blessings he has are from himself and cannot be from the hand of the Lord God. Man looks at an ape and believes that is his ancestor. He believes in the beginning everything came from nothing. Man believes he is wise even though he is not. Actually he understands nothing because all things have to come from a creator.

[This message has been edited by drummachine, 03-20-2003]


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