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Author Topic:   The Law Of Contradiction
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 177 (339305)
08-11-2006 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by robinrohan
08-11-2006 2:37 PM


Re: Welcome to EvC
quote:
Omnipotent = The power to do absolutely anything. No limits can ever be imposed.
Except that which contradicts itself, like making round squares.
quote:
I contend that these two concepts cannot co-exist in any one being since he would know everything he is ever going to do and yet still have the power to not do it. Yet the act of not doing itwould mean he was wrong.
I don't get this. Just because he can do something doesn't mean he has to.
Exactly. I tried to argue that point just a moment ago by using multiple sentences. I think you have managed to word it better in one sentence than I did in 9 or 10.

“If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” -Steve Turner

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by robinrohan, posted 08-11-2006 2:37 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by robinrohan, posted 08-11-2006 4:43 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Annafan
Member (Idle past 4579 days)
Posts: 418
From: Belgium
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 47 of 177 (339307)
08-11-2006 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Hyroglyphx
08-11-2006 4:13 PM


Re: Welcome to EvC
NJ writes:
Atheism is a bold assertion, but agnosticism is an honest inquiry.
How does one decide about his or her approach to something that hides itself so successfully? There seem to be as many ideas of what exactly "God" constitutes, as there are 'believers'. I have yet to meet anyone who could properly show me 'God', such that I could take a definitive decision
The answer to the question what my approach to 'God' is, depends on the person who asks it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2006 4:13 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2006 7:53 PM Annafan has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 177 (339308)
08-11-2006 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by crashfrog
08-11-2006 2:37 PM


Re: Welcome to EvC
Uh-huh. You're convinced that people attack your arguments because they hate Christians? Did you ever consider that it might simply be because you are ignorant and wrong?
No, they attack me for a variety of reasons. They don't like my beliefs on a broad scale. But this argument extends to why anyone would attack the notion of God as if it has any consequence to them. Why hasn't anyone answered my question? If you don't believe in God then what do they care? Its irrational-- unless, of course, there is some tacit recognition that God does exist.

“If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” -Steve Turner

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by crashfrog, posted 08-11-2006 2:37 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Annafan, posted 08-11-2006 5:04 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 81 by nator, posted 08-11-2006 8:27 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 86 by crashfrog, posted 08-11-2006 9:05 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 177 (339309)
08-11-2006 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Hyroglyphx
08-11-2006 4:25 PM


Re: Welcome to EvC
Exactly. I tried to argue that point just a moment ago by using multiple sentences
Well, what Purple Youko meant is that if He is omnipotent then He has the power to negate his own omniscience, which cannot be. But when people say God is ominipotent, this does not mean He can do literally anything--as you pointed out earlier.
As regards your point about morals, you are correct. Assuming morals are subjective, I have no logical reason for deciding what is right and wrong. I just go by my feelings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2006 4:25 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2006 8:32 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 177 (339312)
08-11-2006 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by subbie
08-11-2006 2:39 PM


Re: Welcome to EvC
There it is, plain and simple - arrogance.
All I did was ask you whether or not you were mulling it over. If I said, hahaha, I know I've got you thinking now, you S.O.B.-- then I'd agree with you that I was being arrogant. I was just asking you a simple question. A simple yes or no would have sufficed.
You and your ilk are utterly unable to accept, even conceive, that anyone who disagrees with you could have possibly given the matter deep thought, serious thought, and come to a different conclusion.
No, that's not true. I think Russell, Nietzche, Shermer, Hume, and the others gave it alot of thought. Perhaps you have too.
There is no introspection going on inside of me. I'm 45 years old. I've spent a great deal of time contemplating the possible existence of some diety. I am not agnostic. I'm not uncertain. I'm not undecided. I don't believe the jury is still out. I have concluded that there is no god.
I see. You've also answered my question about introspection. Thank you. So, do you believe that there is no God or do you know that there is no God?
You want another reason why atheists talk about gods?
You never gave me the first reason.
It's simple. I'm sure you've heard it before. But you dismiss it out of hand. It's the truth, at least as far as we believe it to be. I'm willing to accept at face value your motives as you state them. Are you willing to accept mine? If not, I suspect it's your arrogance getting in the way.
That was quite an arrogant statement for someone who calls other people arrogant. I accept your right to choose whether or not you want to be an atheist. Will accept my exegesis on why its irrational and self-refuting?
I will not insult your intelligence by suggesting that if you simply gave the matter more thought you'd agree with me. I'm not that arrogant. But I will close with this quote:
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts.
Such profundity from Mr. Roberts. May God bless him!
If you are interested in understanding the atheist position, and not just concocting a straw man that you can easily demolish, think about that statement.

“If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” -Steve Turner

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by subbie, posted 08-11-2006 2:39 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 08-11-2006 4:53 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 57 by subbie, posted 08-11-2006 5:21 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 51 of 177 (339313)
08-11-2006 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Hyroglyphx
08-11-2006 4:46 PM


Re: Welcome to EvC
So, do you believe that there is no God or do you know that there is no God?
No one living knows whether or not there is a GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2006 4:46 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by robinrohan, posted 08-11-2006 5:04 PM jar has replied
 Message 83 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2006 8:43 PM jar has replied

  
Annafan
Member (Idle past 4579 days)
Posts: 418
From: Belgium
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 52 of 177 (339315)
08-11-2006 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Hyroglyphx
08-11-2006 4:30 PM


Re: Welcome to EvC
NJ writes:
they attack me for a variety of reasons. They don't like my beliefs on a broad scale.
Beliefs come in many different degrees and varieties. And the more they are in conflict with what is easily perceivable(a nice way to express that they are obviously dead wrong), the more they tend to polarize and invite opposition. Maybe that gives you a clue?
NJ writes:
But this argument extends to why anyone would attack the notion of God as if it has any consequence to them. Why hasn't anyone answered my question? If you don't believe in God then what do they care? Its irrational-- unless, of course, there is some tacit recognition that God does exist.
It keeps amazing me how you can remain totally blind to how bogus this argument is. I mean, come-on... They lock up people who believe in pink elephants. Why would they do that if believing in something that in all likeliness doesn't exist, could not possibly be harmful or have harmful consequences?
Sometimes I really have a hard time to convince myself that you honestly think through things thoroughly, Nemesis. I would say more, but I won't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2006 4:30 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2006 9:07 PM Annafan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 177 (339316)
08-11-2006 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
08-11-2006 4:53 PM


Re: Welcome to EvC
No one living knows whether or not there is a GOD.
So when you say, as you have said, that you talk to God, you just mean maybe you're talking to God or maybe you're talking to yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 08-11-2006 4:53 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 08-11-2006 5:13 PM robinrohan has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 54 of 177 (339317)
08-11-2006 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Hyroglyphx
08-11-2006 4:13 PM


Re: Welcome to EvC
Oh, no... Certainly not. I misunderstood you. I thought you meant that if God exists He/She/It/They have nothing to do with physical laws. I was contending that.
What I said is that science has nothing to say about God. It can't detect, measure, prove or disprove him/her/it. Science is, pretty much by definition, Agnostic.
I'm pointing out the flaws in their logic when you place one of their theories next to another. They contain conflicting premises.
This is what it was all about
PY writes:
Any attempt at disproving God on a base of logic via the "Law of Contradiction" is not really an attempt to disprove the existence of God but to disprove (or falsify) a specific, man made depiction of God and his attributes.
I could agree with that statement. But what purpose does that serve, particularly if there is no purpose to the universe anyway?
I don't see any premises defined here. I just pointed out that it is only logically possible to knock down definition of God which you have first defined in a non-logical way. If there wasn't a logical conflict in the definition then it could not be knocked down with logic.
Any real God would have to be logical within the universe that he created would he not?
I have no idea what you are going on about with purposes since no atheist proposition concerning the purpose of anything, has to my knowledge been put forward, particularly in this thread.
Atheism is making the claim that God does not exist.
NO IT ISN"T!!!
See this is what pisses me off and keeps me in the argument. People telling me what I believe in when I patently DO NOT believe that.
Atheism is specifically defined by the lack of (that is what the A prefix means) Theism (or a belief on God or Gods)
It is just like A-Sexual (lack of sex) or are you going to tell me that a Asexual creature/thing actively believes that Sex does not exist.
One more time, here is a link. Please read it and stop perpetuating this untruth about me. No webpage found at provided URL: http://atheism.about.com/od/definitionofatheism/a/whatisatheism.htm
Here is an exerpt
quote:
here is, unfortunately, some disagreement about the definition of atheism. It is interesting to note that most of that disagreement comes from theists ” atheists themselves tend to agree on what atheism means. Christians in particular dispute the definition used by atheists and insist that atheism means something very different.
The broader, and more common, understanding of atheism among atheists is quite simply "not believing in any gods." No claims or denials are made ” an atheist is just a person who does not happen to be a theist. Sometimes this broader understanding is called "weak" or "implicit" atheism. Most good, complete dictionaries readily support this.
This is the reason that I argue about Atheism. It's because people just won't let it drop. They define me into a corner then beat me over the head with it. It happens again and again and again... ad nauseum. Then another person comes along and it starts all over again.
I am most definitely not an Agnostic since an Agnostic sits on the fence, is undecided. To me it fits the same catagory of undecided as does the existence of that Flying-Purple-Elephant of yours. It is incredibly unlikely due to a singular lack of even one piece or corroborating evidence..... Ever. But like any scientist I cannot entirely rule it out as I have no way to prove it either way.
God, to me, is utterly irrelevent. Just like the Invisible Pink Unicorn, Zeus, Odin, Sant and all the other imaginary friends that people have made up over the years.
The only thing is that just maybe, tomorrow, somebody will come forward with irrefutable evidence of the existence of one of the aforementioned imaginary beings. Which one it is makes absolutely no difference to me.
If there is no meaning to anything then what compels the atheist to assign meaning? The meaning in meaninglessness? Doesn't sound appealing or logical. Everything has meaning, everything has a purpose. You eat for a reason. The purpose is so you can survive. Now, you keep following that train of thought with literally everything and most assuredly you will realize that anything that exists, exists for a reason, even if we are incapable of percieving the totality of existence. If every natural phenomenon happens for a reason, then why wouldn't the conglomerate of it all? And if there is no meaning then what in the world are you arguing you about? Do you understand?
No I'm not fluent in gobbledygook
omnipotence
Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful
omniscience
Having total knowledge; knowing everything
Where in the defintions is that incompatible?
See Message 38
That makes no sense. You can know what you are going to do and still have had an option to not do it. That's NOT even close to being a contradiction, only your inability to grasp the concept.
No you can't. not if you are omniscient. Your knowledge of the future is PERFECT and cannot be made to be wrong.
That's like trying to pit God against Himself by asking, "Could God create a rock so heavy that He couldn't lift it" Its your lack of understanding.
And that too is a perfectly good example. It has nothing to do with understanding and a lot to do with unwillingness to really ask the question. If you start of with the premise that you have to be right no matter what then you can hand wave anything away.
God can do anything that isn't contrary to Himself. God cannot sin because He is the very definition of righteousness.
All this means is that our definition of good changes to become whatever God does. You can't limit what he can do or he will not be omnipotent. All you can do is change what we consider to be good.
I've never seen anyone in here discussing the intricacies of Zarathustra, Zeus, Marduk, or any other deity.
I would love to. The subject fascinates me.
Who is 'society?' If I'm apart of society then the argument does not stand.
Don't be ridiculous. Everybody is part of society. it is a living breathing entity that cahnges with time. Morality now is completely different than it was a couple hundred years ago and it will be different again in another couple of hundred yeasr. We are all molded by the society in which we live. And the things we do help to shape the society of the future.
Don't have time for th erest. i have to go.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2006 4:13 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by robinrohan, posted 08-11-2006 5:15 PM PurpleYouko has replied
 Message 90 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2006 9:40 PM PurpleYouko has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 55 of 177 (339318)
08-11-2006 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by robinrohan
08-11-2006 5:04 PM


Re: Welcome to EvC
So when you say, as you have said, that you talk to God, you just mean maybe you're talking to God or maybe you're talking to yourself.
Certainly.
I believe I am talking to GOD, may even personally be pretty sure of it, but I cannot see how anyone living can say they know GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by robinrohan, posted 08-11-2006 5:04 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by robinrohan, posted 08-11-2006 5:52 PM jar has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 177 (339319)
08-11-2006 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by PurpleYouko
08-11-2006 5:04 PM


Re: Welcome to EvC
NO IT ISN"T!!!
See this is what pisses me off and keeps me in the argument. People telling me what I believe in when I patently DO NOT believe that.
Atheism is specifically defined by the lack of (that is what the A prefix means) Theism (or a belief on God or Gods)
It is just like A-Sexual (lack of sex) or are you going to tell me that a Asexual creature/thing actively believes that Sex does not exist.
I have a little problem with that comparison. Asexuality has to do with an action or lack of it, not a belief. Why are you nitpicking about this? What difference does it make if you say, "I believe there is no God" or "I don't believe there is a God"? That's all this distinction you are trying to make amounts to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by PurpleYouko, posted 08-11-2006 5:04 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by PurpleYouko, posted 08-14-2006 9:12 AM robinrohan has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 57 of 177 (339320)
08-11-2006 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Hyroglyphx
08-11-2006 4:46 PM


Re: Welcome to EvC
You never gave me the first reason.
You gave the first reason, something about all atheists deep down believing that god does exist, that's why we can't stop talking about it, or something along those lines.
Will accept my exegesis on why its irrational and self-refuting?
I've perused your posts in this thread and I'm not sure I know why you believe it's irrational and self-refuting. If you could spell it out for me, I'll let you know if I accept it or not.
As far as the Roberts quote goes, can you supply a rational reason for rejecting the other gods that you don't believe in that does not similiarly explain a disbelief in all gods?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2006 4:46 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by robinrohan, posted 08-11-2006 5:59 PM subbie has not replied
 Message 92 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2006 10:06 PM subbie has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 177 (339326)
08-11-2006 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by jar
08-11-2006 5:13 PM


Re: Welcome to EvC
I believe I am talking to GOD, may even personally be pretty sure of it, but I cannot see how anyone living can say they know GOD.
Oh, I thought you said you talked to God. I'm almost sure you said that. But you didn't really mean that. You meant that you think maybe you talked to God. And when you say the world is awesome, what you mean is maybe it's awesome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 08-11-2006 5:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 08-11-2006 6:02 PM robinrohan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 177 (339327)
08-11-2006 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by subbie
08-11-2006 5:21 PM


Re: Welcome to EvC
You gave the first reason, something about all atheists deep down believing that god does exist, that's why we can't stop talking about it, or something along those lines
Yes, I got that impression too. But he didn't actually say that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by subbie, posted 08-11-2006 5:21 PM subbie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Omnivorous, posted 08-11-2006 7:13 PM robinrohan has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 60 of 177 (339328)
08-11-2006 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by robinrohan
08-11-2006 5:52 PM


Re: Welcome to EvC
Oh, I thought you said you talked to God. I'm almost sure you said that. But you didn't really mean that. You meant that you think maybe you talked to God.
That's pretty much it.
And when you say the world is awesome, what you mean is maybe it's awesome.
Nope, that is verifiable. It is wondrous and awesome.
See, here is how it works. Some things can be verified, some things can't. GOD is a matter of belief. While I might believe very strongly I talk to GOD, I must honestly admit I could be wrong.
But ...
... is awesome.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by robinrohan, posted 08-11-2006 5:52 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by robinrohan, posted 08-11-2006 6:09 PM jar has replied

  
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