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Author Topic:   Eyewitness To Jesus? The Gospel Authors
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 91 of 107 (339471)
08-12-2006 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by ramoss
08-11-2006 3:04 PM


Re: No discussion of 1 Corinthians?
Hi, Ram, I`ve never been a great fan of paleography except in a general sense. In times of widespread illiteracy and lack of quick communication between disparate communities, I imagine that schools or teachers of scribes might tend to retain their system over an extended period. The Qumran Scrolls were dated across two centuries paleographically, and even C14 dating with its margin of error couldn`t bring the dates much closer. Maybe the push for changes in writing, layout, etc. might have been instigated by major powers near the heart of activity and the results trickled down to isolated communities?

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 92 of 107 (339518)
08-12-2006 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Nighttrain
08-12-2006 1:00 AM


Re: No discussion of 1 Corinthians?
I believe the point of the essay I made is that trying to date the P52 fragment to be the early part of the second century is showing a strong bias of the researchers... because it isn't accurate enough to make the determination.

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Equinox
Member (Idle past 5142 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 93 of 107 (393367)
04-04-2007 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by ramoss
08-12-2006 10:45 AM


Re: No discussion of 1 Corinthians?
Does anyone know if p52 has been C14 dated? That would be very useful information. If late, it would dispel any 125 CE speculations, and if early (asy 135 CE), though it wouldn't prove an early date (since old paper may have been used), it would support an early date, since I don't see much reason for someone back then to try to make it appear old to C14 dating (which they of course weren't aware of).

-Equinox
_ _ _ ___ _ _ _
You know, it's probably already answered at An Index to Creationist Claims...
(Equinox is a Naturalistic Pagan -  Naturalistic Paganism Home)

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Equinox
Member (Idle past 5142 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 94 of 107 (393368)
04-04-2007 4:22 PM


Interesting dating
Hey, I just looked up the approximate dates of the oldest manuscripts we have from each gospel, and both Mk and Lk don't have anything until around 250. So our earliest dates for these must come from quotes by church fathers, which are notoriously loose. I wonder what our strongest evidence is supporting the text of these gospels as early as possible?

-Equinox
_ _ _ ___ _ _ _
You know, it's probably already answered at An Index to Creationist Claims...
(Equinox is a Naturalistic Pagan -  Naturalistic Paganism Home)

  
Juraikken
Member (Idle past 6188 days)
Posts: 82
From: Winnetka, CA
Joined: 11-13-2006


Message 95 of 107 (395258)
04-15-2007 8:07 PM


wait 250 AD right? lol i doubt the desciples who wrote the gospel lived that long after the death of christ.

Replies to this message:
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MUTTY6969
Member (Idle past 6190 days)
Posts: 65
From: ARIZONA
Joined: 05-20-2006


Message 96 of 107 (395553)
04-16-2007 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Juraikken
04-15-2007 8:07 PM


That’s the point...it is believed that not all of the authors were eyewitnesses.

Steve Rushin: "By the age of 18, the average American has witnessed 200,000 acts of violence on television, most of them occurring during Game 1 of the NHL playoff series."

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Juraikken
Member (Idle past 6188 days)
Posts: 82
From: Winnetka, CA
Joined: 11-13-2006


Message 97 of 107 (395555)
04-16-2007 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by MUTTY6969
04-16-2007 11:03 PM


MTTY6969 writes:
That’s the point...it is believed that not all of the authors were eyewitnesses.
but why do you trust the date and not the authors words?
what if they wrote it right after Jesus' death?

This message is a reply to:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 98 of 107 (395556)
04-16-2007 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Juraikken
04-16-2007 11:07 PM


but why do you trust the date and not the authors words?
Cause anybody can write anything they want.

Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 99 of 107 (395870)
04-18-2007 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by DrJones*
04-16-2007 11:09 PM


processing...
Like the avatar, Doc.
Good point, too.
AbE: What sfs contributed to this thread is exceptional. We're lucky to have this.
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : see note.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 100 of 107 (395882)
04-18-2007 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Juraikken
04-16-2007 11:07 PM


quote:
but why do you trust the date and not the authors words?
what if they wrote it right after Jesus' death?
Can you tell me where in Mark the author claims to be a disciple ? Or gives a date where he wrote ? Or even tells us his name ?
(And before you refer to the title, I want something actually written by the author - the title naming "Mark" was added later, NOT written by the author).

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Juraikken
Member (Idle past 6188 days)
Posts: 82
From: Winnetka, CA
Joined: 11-13-2006


Message 101 of 107 (396207)
04-19-2007 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by PaulK
04-18-2007 9:39 AM


when i write something i dont always put "i wrote this" or anything of that sort nor do i write in the third person

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 102 of 107 (396217)
04-19-2007 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Juraikken
04-19-2007 6:12 AM


Juraikken, what do you know about how ancient texts are attributed?

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 103 of 107 (396222)
04-19-2007 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Juraikken
04-19-2007 6:12 AM


So in other words, "what the author wrote" has no direct bearing on either the author's identity or the dating of the Gospels referred to.
So why bring up the subject ?

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 104 of 107 (396265)
04-19-2007 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Equinox
04-04-2007 4:19 PM


Re: No discussion of 1 Corinthians?
It is too small a sample to risk destroying it further with carbon dating.

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DD2014
Junior Member (Idle past 3887 days)
Posts: 17
From: Cali, USA
Joined: 01-06-2009


Message 105 of 107 (502847)
03-13-2009 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by JIM
12-28-2003 2:47 PM


quote:
We are told to accept that Jesus existed based upon the Gospels of the Bible, yet the Gospels are so poorly written that a logical person is at best left to ponder if Jesus even existed. The Gospels are consistently contradictive, filled with mathematic errors and don’t compliment each other on very important details. This page shall serve as an example for just how unreliable the Gospels are.
Gospel Contradictions:
1) How many generations were there between Abraham to David? Matthew 1:17 lists fourteen generations. Matthew 1:2 lists thirteen generations.
2) Is Paul lying? In Acts 20:35 Paul told people "to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'" Since Jesus never made such a biblical statement, isn’t Paul guilty of deception?
3) When did the leper become not a leper? (Matthew 8:13 & 8:14) Jesus healed the leper before visiting the house. (Mark 1:29-30 & 1:40-42) Jesus healed the leper after visiting Simon Peter’s house.
4) Who approached Jesus? (Matthew 8:5-7) The Centurion approached Jesus, beseeching help for a sick servant. (Luke 7:3 & 7:6-7) The Centurion did not approach Jesus. He sent friends and elders of the Jews.
5) Was she dead or just dying? (Matthew 9:18) He asked for help, saying his daughter was already dead. (Luke 8:41-42) Jairus approached Jesus for help, because his daughter was dying.
Source
Edited by AdminModulous, : No reason given.

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