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Author Topic:   Does radio-carbon dating disprove evolution?
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5617 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 31 of 308 (339513)
08-12-2006 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by crashfrog
08-12-2006 2:37 AM


Re: Cold Fusion
A single proton is, by definition, a nucleus. (It's the nucleus of a hydrogen atom.) Therefore the process where an atom absorbs a thermal neutron and emits a proton is correctly described as fission, because the nucleus is splitting into two nuclei, one of which is the nucleus of a hydrogen atom (the proton.)
Deuterium(hydrogen isotope)is formed when a neutron fuses to the proton within the nucleus.
resource article
Atomic Weight by Ron Kurtus - Physics Lessons: School for Champions
Nuclear fusion atoms
Atoms with atomic numbers lower than Iron typically have atomic weights that are lower than their true atomic weights. The reason is that these nucleii are capable of fusion or joining together and also give off energy. The most obvious of these is Hydrogen that is used in nuclear fusion reactions, such as the Hydrogen Bomb.
In the H-bomb the isotope of Hydrogen (Deuterium), which consists of a nucleus containing one proton and one neutron, combines to form a nucleus of Helium. The atomic weight of two atoms of Deuterium is 4.027106 and the atomic weight of Helium is 4.002602. The extra 0.0245 of atomic weight is turned into energy for the explosion.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 32 of 308 (339515)
08-12-2006 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by johnfolton
08-12-2006 9:47 AM


Re: Cold Fusion
Not a single word of that is a relevant response.

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carbonstar
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 308 (339532)
08-12-2006 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by NosyNed
08-11-2006 3:20 AM


just a question
Sorry if it seems juvinile of me to ask this question, I am quite new here, but what is the proper method for dating fossils?

- "Only two things in life are infinate, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not so sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4924 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 34 of 308 (339553)
08-12-2006 2:28 PM


the usual idiocy from some evos
Reading through a page and a half, I feel compelled to point out that although a few here have tried a substantive response, a good portion, such as PaulK's posts, are the usual evo idiocy so typical, attacking the people and not the argument, and the constant trying to take the topic off-topic to address the ToE as a whole, and so I want to make a quick comment there.
First, the hysteria of some of your comments just makes someone that has for over 20 years watched and studied this debate, just suggest to me the creationists are probably right. I remember meeting this same hysteria back in the 80s when I suggested that Haeckel's work was forged and his conclusions phoney. The evos I would meet would react with similar emotionalism, and it wasn't really into after 1997 that we began to see some evos admit to the facts that they were wrong.
Secondly, I said in my opening post that I don't know much about carbon-dating, and those of you that have bothered to read my posts know I have never questioned that the earth was old. I do think there is some evidence of dinosaurs remaining coexisting with humans, but that doesn't really mean I think the earth is young. it's not an issue I have delved into.
Third, the fossil record and living biota are, imo, all the evidence you need to fully discount current, mainstream evolutionist models. Maybe someone's ideas like JAD's prescribed theory have merit as he at least tried to honestly deal with the facts.
With that being said, all I wanted was the stock evo answers. Unfortunately, thus far there is little substantiation for those answers and a great deal of mudslinging and diverting to a side topic within the OP, on cold fusion. I recognize the YECers have a theory on tweaking carbon-dating, and thus far judging by the paltry responses, I tend to think they may be correct, but honestly, whether the dinosaur bones are dated to 35K years or 5K years, either dating is somewhat devastating, if accurate, for evolutionist dating schemes, and so let's try to keep the discussion to that.
Once again, realize dating methods is not an area I have been interested in, nor studied a lot of, but it sure seems to me you guys jump on every dating method that you prefer, and reject dating methods you don't like. My experience with watching how evos handle data suggests this is not an objective process within the evolutionist community, but this sort of selective acceptance of data is par for the course for you guys.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 38 by Jazzns, posted 08-12-2006 4:27 PM randman has replied
 Message 43 by PaulK, posted 08-12-2006 6:02 PM randman has not replied
 Message 50 by Admin, posted 08-13-2006 7:15 PM randman has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 193 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 35 of 308 (339556)
08-12-2006 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Quetzal
08-11-2006 10:07 PM


my understanding is that radiometric dating, including K-Ar, can't be used on fossil-bearing strata directly, as those are generally sedimentary in origin. Nor, IIRC, can it be used directly on fossils. Radiometric dating is used to date igneous rocks or igneous intrusions that bracket the fossiliferous layers
Pretty close to right. Sedimentary layers cqan sometimes be dated directly, by dating something which formed when the layer lithified. Improvements in insturmental sensitivity and consequent reductions in required sample size help this a lot. (SHRIMP systems regularly sample a disc 10 micrometers diameter and 1 micrometer thick:
, from Geochronology: SHRIMP laboratory.) Some materials that can be dated include the aptly named xenotime which forms on zircons at lithification (e.g. SHRIMP Uranium-Lead Dating of Diagenetic Xenotime in Siliciclastic Sedimentary Rocks, K-Ar dating of glauconite, and fission track dating in apatite.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 36 of 308 (339562)
08-12-2006 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by randman
08-12-2006 2:28 PM


Re: the usual idiocy from some evos
In fact, rm, PaulK's post 4 (Message 4 was the most pertenant in the thread.
Those who made the statments you posting in the OP were, by this time, deliberatly lying. PaulK summed that up pretty well.
All the other posts simply supported that with more details.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 37 of 308 (339569)
08-12-2006 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by randman
08-12-2006 2:28 PM


Re: the usual idiocy from some evos
I've ready through every post in this thread and the only posts I would describe as "hysteric" have been yours.
Pretty typical randman response, though. Evolutionist enthusiasm for science is twisted around to prove creationism right; but creationist enthusiasm for the destruction of science is held as evidence of creationism.
Indeed, randman offers anything and everything in support of creationism, except actual scientific evidence. If randman gets a paper cut, that proves creationism. If he doesn't, that proves creationism. If an evolutionist disagrees with him, that proves creationism. If an evolutionist agrees with him on the most unrelated issue, that proves creationism too.
Nobody's fooled by you, randman. Absolutely nobody believes for an instant that you've ever bothered to honestly and objectively assess the issue.

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


(1)
Message 38 of 308 (339574)
08-12-2006 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by randman
08-12-2006 2:28 PM


Re: the usual idiocy from some evos
Randman, do you think it is valid to carbon date something that is not organic?
What would you think of someone who did that and started screaming that carbon dating is false because it produced some crazy date?

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4924 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 39 of 308 (339578)
08-12-2006 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by NosyNed
08-12-2006 3:32 PM


Re: the usual idiocy from some evos
I see absolutely nothing substantive in that post. I have learned it's a waste of time showing PaulK where he is wrong so I ignored the post. If you want to do the research, you can see the errors soon enough for yourself.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4924 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 40 of 308 (339582)
08-12-2006 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Jazzns
08-12-2006 4:27 PM


Re: the usual idiocy from some evos
So bones are inorganic?
In our opinion the reason that dinosaur bones can be radiocarbon dated is so simple that every museum curator, paleontologist, and geologist in the world should be delighted with the wealth of information sitting in museum basements. The reason is: many if not most dinosaur bones contain a coating of black-to-brown carbon film that penetrates the laminar structure of the bone surfaces; we have detected 2 to 7 percent carbon in 12 separate dinosaurs (fragments). There was no shellac on any of the bone fragments we studied; some were freshly excavated in the 80's; some were from the early 19th century and, five of course, as noted above, were dated between 9,890 and 25,750 years B.P.
Other paleontologists have noted that dinosaur bones as a rule are "carbonized on the surface and throughout the lamellar outer layers" (12). "Kerogenous hydrocarbons" are often present in the central pores and Haversian canals according to the same source. When a cross section of an Acrocanthosaurus bone fragment was sectioned and mounted metallographically in 1989 we also noted that the pores were black which we assumed to be carbonized material. Although there is little or no collagen in the bones as observed by radiocarbon dating labs the organic matter present in the bones are obviously biogenic in nature; that is: the source of the carbon is the dinosaur tissue and other organic matter buried with it.
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Edited by randman, : No reason given.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 41 of 308 (339591)
08-12-2006 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by randman
08-12-2006 4:54 PM


Re: the usual idiocy from some evos
I never said that they were not. I was talking about other things that are inorganic. Some well preserved samples of dinosaur remains have been found that are not fossilized. They are not fossils. I am not versed enough in the relevant sciences to determine if carbon traces from such samples are canidates for carbon dating.
What I asked you though, is simply do you think it is valid to carbon date something that is not organic? I would HOPE that your answer to this question is no.
What would you think of someone who did that and started screaming that carbon dating is false because it produced some crazy date?
What if I could show you a number of instances where Creationists were caught carbon dating objects that were inorganic?

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by randman, posted 08-12-2006 4:54 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4924 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 42 of 308 (339604)
08-12-2006 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Jazzns
08-12-2006 5:16 PM


Re: the usual idiocy from some evos
You do realize they were dating fossils of bones that contain carbonization. I assumed your question related to the thread, but perhaps not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Jazzns, posted 08-12-2006 5:16 PM Jazzns has replied

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 43 of 308 (339616)
08-12-2006 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by randman
08-12-2006 2:28 PM


Re: the usual idiocy from some evos
The simple fact is that the source you quoted misrepresented their sources as I documented. Pointing out such misrepresentations is a substantive criticism and not a personal attack.
The issue of cold fusion was not raised by evolutionists - and it is a complete red herring. Nobody has shown that it has any relevance to the actual topic, for the simple reason that it does not.
And finally I note that you raise no substantive points at all - certainly no answer to the points that have been raised against the OP
Any truly neutral reader can see that the creationists have, yet again, been caught misrepresenting the facts - and that you have no answer beyond insult and denial.

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4019 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 44 of 308 (339651)
08-12-2006 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by carbonstar
08-12-2006 12:17 PM


Re: just a question
Get their number
Ring them
Ask them out

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nator
Member (Idle past 2195 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 45 of 308 (339652)
08-12-2006 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by carbonstar
08-12-2006 12:17 PM


Re: just a question
quote:
Sorry if it seems juvinile of me to ask this question, I am quite new here, but what is the proper method for dating fossils?
There are lots of methods for dating fossils.
A good introduction can be found here.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
Edited by schrafinator, : took three edits to fix the bloody link!

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