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Author Topic:   Kalam Cosmological argument
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 166 of 178 (334567)
07-23-2006 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by sidelined
07-23-2006 12:50 PM


Re: Some whys and why nots
can we now say that the device that records the collapse now has, in fact, collapsed the wave function before we look at the device to see what it has recorded?
In decoherence, we don't talk about collapse. Collapse is one way of getting to the classical regime from the quantum, decoherence is another. But in effect, yes, it is interaction from the environment that pushes the quantum state towards what we would consider a classical state. If there is an observing device, it is going to be an extreme form of environment, in that it is forcing itself into interaction with whatever you are observing.
There are still mystical elements: you can start to consider the joint wave-function of the electron, apparatus and your mind, and you can end up with superpositions of your mind: one in which you observe up and one in which you observe down. This is usually known as many-minds, sort of related to Everett's many-worlds.

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happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 167 of 178 (334847)
07-24-2006 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Percy
07-23-2006 5:10 PM


Re: Back to the topic
Percy writes:
So to reiterate what I said before, here are a list of effects which have no cause we know of, plus one more that occurred to me:
Nothing causes a particular atom of Uranium-238 to decay at a particular time. It just happens.
Nothing causes a particular electron to tunnel through the barrier of a tunnel diode. It just happens.
Nothing causes an entangled particle's wave function to collapse to either up or down spin upon being observed. It just happens.
Virtual particles. There is nothing that causes them to flit into existence. They just do, governed by the laws of quantum physics.
Which slit a particle travels through in diffraction experiments.
This negates the claim of the opening post that every effect must have a cause.
Even if all of those things you've pointed out above actually do have a cause that we discover in some new revelation of physics that STILL doesn't make the opening assumption of the argument valid.
The very reason the Kalam Cosmological argument exists is because we don't know if the universe has a cause or not. If we DID know it had a cause then the argument would not be required.
It is not valid to say "everything we know of has a cause, therefore EVERYTHING has a cause. The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.
And it's certainly not valid to just claim that everything has a cause. I could just as validly claim that NOT everything has a cause, and my claim would be just as well supported as the first (since we can't possibly know that either are true).
And even if we could prove that everything in the universe has to have a cause, it still wouldn't necessarily follow that the universe has a cause. The universe is not in the universe. Does it even make cognitive sense to claim that the universe has a cause? This is where it starts to hurt my head, but can time have a cause? I certainly don't think it makes sense to claim so, anymore than "before the big bang" makes sense if it is taken as t0 (first point in time).
Edited by happy_atheist, : No reason given.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 168 of 178 (334925)
07-24-2006 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by happy_atheist
07-24-2006 12:56 PM


Re: Back to the topic
And even if we could prove that everything in the universe has to have a cause, it still wouldn't necessarily follow that the universe has a cause
Absolutely. This is the critical point. Fallacy of composition and all that.
Does it even make cognitive sense to claim that the universe has a cause?
If you can identify the cause then you can surely extend your definition of the universe to include the cause, and now you are back to square one!
However, I do get nervous when we start talking about the universe NOT having a cause after mention of virtual particles, quantum theory, and the like. The idea that the universe may have just blipped into existence, or tunnelled its way from nothing is just as bad. All these phenomena require existing laws, so again we just extend our definition of the boundary of the universe to include this pre-universe where such laws exist, and again we have the same problem.
The Universe just is. Whether finite or infinite, that is it.

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happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 169 of 178 (334973)
07-24-2006 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by cavediver
07-24-2006 3:52 PM


Re: Back to the topic
cavediver writes:
The Universe just is. Whether finite or infinite, that is it.
I think that just sums it up perfectly. And it's surprisingly hard to admit it, probably because it goes against all common sense or intuition. But then that just goes to show how useless common sense can be when talking about things we don't know the answer to yet.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 170 of 178 (335094)
07-25-2006 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by happy_atheist
07-24-2006 12:56 PM


Re: Back to the topic
happy_atheist writes:
Even if all of those things you've pointed out above actually do have a cause that we discover in some new revelation of physics that STILL doesn't make the opening assumption of the argument valid.
To me this runs against one of the basic inductive assumptions of science. We assume that the laws of the universe, those that we've uncovered so far in those parts of the universe open to our observation, hold everywhere throughout the universe, including those parts we haven't observed or can't observe. We use this perspective for everything we've discovered, such as the speed of light and other constants, and for derivative phenomena, such as the freezing point of water under 1 atmosphere pressure. We believe that what we've found to be the case from the observations we can make from earth hold true everywhere throughout the universe.
So if the foundational assumption of the Kalam Cosmological argument were accurate, namely that all phenomena we know of so far have a cause, then a consistent scientific approach would conclude that this is something that should be true everywhere throughout existence, and I switch to the word "existence" because all of existence (multi-braned or whatever it turns out to be) is what we're really talking about when the origin of our own universe is the topic.
So to concede that every effect we've ever observed has a cause, and then to claim that that doesn't mean that the universe has a cause, is scientifically inconsistent because it runs against the inductive approach, unless there is evidence. Declarations like "The universe just is" do not constitute evidence. This is just approaching science as if it were a bunch of special cases that just are the way they are, rather than a cohesive, interwoven, intelligible and self-consistent whole.
--Percy

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 171 of 178 (335109)
07-25-2006 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Percy
07-25-2006 6:24 AM


Re: Back to the topic
So to concede that every effect we've ever observed has a cause, and then to claim that that doesn't mean that the universe has a cause, is scientifically inconsistent
How so? Every observed cause and effect are intrinsically tied to time. Time is an internal property of the Universe. You cannot use induction to leap from processes that are bound to time, to something for which time is but a constituent part. You could postulate that time preceeds the universe, but we simply widen the definition of universe to include that pre-time. You could postulate a separate external time dimension, but again, we just widen our definition of universe.
Declarations like "The universe just is" do not constitute evidence
True. It is simply a statement of all that we can say at the moment, given our understanding of General Relativity and hints shown through possible higher theories such as Strings, M, Loop, etc. The meta-physical question is "if it just is, then why is it?"
rather than a cohesive, interwoven, intelligible and self-consistent whole.
This is what we search for in a TOE. But even if it has all the qualities you describe, we may still be left with "but why is it here?". I'm not sure we will ever get to the point where we will know why there is something rather than nothing. Or why the equations "fly".

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AdminModulous
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Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 172 of 178 (335114)
07-25-2006 7:59 AM


Back to the topic!
I'm very happy that the topic is being gotten back to, just a quick note to remind people to keep their subtitles current and relevant. Thanks.

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mitchellmckain
Member (Idle past 6423 days)
Posts: 60
From: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
Joined: 08-14-2006


Message 173 of 178 (339926)
08-14-2006 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by cavediver
07-23-2006 5:49 PM


Re: Some whys and why nots
quote:
In decoherence, we don't talk about collapse. ...sort of related to Everett's many-worlds.
Indeed I think the only relevance that decoherence has for the question of determinism is the Many Worlds Interpretation, which is the only way to preserve mathematical determinism in quantum mechanics. You don't get rid of the probablilistic nature of quantum mechanics and the result of the Bell's inequality experiments just by seeking a better mathematical description of measurement than wave collapse. It can only lead to the MWI which simply hides the discontinuity of wave collapse and the indeterminacy of real events in the divergence of reality into a multiplicity of unobservable worlds. The mathematical determinism of the MWI really had nothing to do with the question of the determinism of observable events. The MWI is equivalent to CI because these other worlds are irrelevant. They are beyond the mandate of physics because they are unobservable.
P.S. Greeting. Sorry for butting in. Not only do I not know the context of this particular post, but I did not really find the OP very intersting. It is not much of an improvement on Aristotle's argument. So why am I here? Because posters in thescienceforum.com insisted that I join this forum just to answer this particular claim of yours, even though I warned them that it would be pointless. If people could not convince Einstein that determinism in physics was dead then how could I hope to convince you?
Edited by mitchellmckain, : No reason given.
Edited by mitchellmckain, : impoved accuracy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 178 (340420)
08-16-2006 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by mitchellmckain
08-14-2006 4:29 AM


Re: Some whys and why nots
Not only do I not know the context of this particular post, but I did not really find the OP very intersting. It is not much of an improvement on Aristotle's argument. So why am I here? Because posters in thescienceforum.com insisted that I join this forum just to answer this particular claim of yours, even though I warned them that it would be pointless. If people could not convince Einstein that determinism in physics was dead then how could I hope to convince you?
What about the argument do you find insipid? Is it this underscored, supercilious attitude that plagues this thread? This thread was meant to be one of pure metaphysics and philosophy. My detractors have managed to derail it into a discussion on theoretical physics, none of which, that can be corroborated through empiricism. Are you finding a similar distatse or are you worn thin on metaphysic talk? What exactly is your objection that your home forum was questioning?

“If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” -Steve Turner

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by mitchellmckain, posted 08-14-2006 4:29 AM mitchellmckain has replied

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 175 of 178 (340425)
08-16-2006 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Hyroglyphx
08-16-2006 12:40 AM


Re: Some whys and why nots
This thread was meant to be one of pure metaphysics and philosophy.
The argument depended on causation, which why it leads into empirical science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-16-2006 12:40 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 176 of 178 (340426)
08-16-2006 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Hyroglyphx
08-16-2006 12:40 AM


Re: Some whys and why nots
quote:
This thread was meant to be one of pure metaphysics and philosophy
I have no sympathy for you. Craig invokes physics in his answer. YOu yourself appealed to science in Message 5.
And when I tried to get you to answer a philosophical question on how the concept of "beginning" works with a finite past (Message 4) you evaded it completely, falsely claiming to answer it with "empirical obsrvation (Message 8)
So if you refuse to discuss the philopshicval issues, and insist on using science to support the assertion that the universe has a beginning it is no surprise that others will discuss the science relevant to that assertion.e

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 Message 174 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-16-2006 12:40 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
mitchellmckain
Member (Idle past 6423 days)
Posts: 60
From: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
Joined: 08-14-2006


Message 177 of 178 (340513)
08-16-2006 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Hyroglyphx
08-16-2006 12:40 AM


Profuse apologies
The point is that I was not responding to the OP, and that if I hadn't been directed to this thread and the discussion between cavediver and Percy, I would not have been involved in the thread at all. I tried to join the forum in a natural manner looking for threads that I was interested and this one did not spark interest. I would not have used the word "insipid" at all. I am a great admirer of Aristotle and this is an attempt to patch his argument for the existence of a first cause.
I do not think any proof for the existence of God can ultimately achieve the goal. In fact I do not put much faith in the idea of proof for most things. As a rational argument I think Aristotle already made it. It is persuasive as far as it goes. And I don't think that doubting its premises will get you very far. In other words it depends on the intuition that an infinite regress of causes is, at the very least, implausible. However I feel extreme doubt whether the argument can be put on any more solid foundation than that as seems to be your objective. So, I am sorry but I don't get anything that seems substantive from your formulation.
For example, the idea that addition cannot achieve infinity: so what? Your addition starts with the number one and therefore assumes a first cause, therefore this assumes the very point you are tring to prove. Or to put it another way, I can disprove your point by saying that you can achieve infinity by addition because infinity plus 1 equals infinity. There is nothing inconsistent for example about the idea of line which extends without limit in either one direction or both directions. ... Sorry.

See my relativistic physics of space flight simimulator at Astahost.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-16-2006 12:40 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 178 (340522)
08-16-2006 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by mitchellmckain
08-16-2006 1:13 PM


Re: Profuse apologies
I do not think any proof for the existence of God can ultimately achieve the goal. In fact I do not put much faith in the idea of proof for most things. As a rational argument I think Aristotle already made it. It is persuasive as far as it goes. And I don't think that doubting its premises will get you very far. In other words it depends on the intuition that an infinite regress of causes is, at the very least, implausible. However I feel extreme doubt whether the argument can be put on any more solid foundation than that as seems to be your objective. So, I am sorry but I don't get anything that seems substantive from your formulation.
Ah, I understand. Well, I feel it is an excelent argument and perhaps Kalam and Craig did not improve what some might otherwise call Aristotle's argument, impenetrable philosophically. I guess I share your admiration for the argument and can't understand why anyone would argue a point that is so, to me, obvious and logical. I think this philosophy does alot of personal damage to anyone that wants to believe in a banal, capricious, purposeless existence. I just don't see it that way. Its the old crux between meaningful and meaningless. Ironically, those who prefer the banality and meaningless often find themselves smuggling in meaning wherever they can. I find that to be a tragic conclusion for them.
For example, the idea that addition cannot achieve infinity: so what? Your addition starts with the number one and therefore assumes a first cause, therefore this assumes the very point you are tring to prove. Or to put it another way, I can disprove your point by saying that you can achieve infinity by addition because infinity plus 1 equals infinity. There is nothing inconsistent for example about the idea of line which extends without limit in either one direction or both directions. ... Sorry.
That logic breaks down because there are additions and subtractions to the universe all the time. That thought defies observation. If it did then your dog that was born in 1983 and died in 1994 is infinite. How can that be? The dog began to exist, and then it ceased to exist... Unless of course our concept of existence is totally unknown to us.

“If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” -Steve Turner

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by mitchellmckain, posted 08-16-2006 1:13 PM mitchellmckain has not replied

  
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