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Author Topic:   Did the sky really go dark as biblical inerrantists insist?
Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 31 of 113 (340733)
08-17-2006 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Hyroglyphx
08-16-2006 11:11 PM


Re: Misinterpretations
quote:
Both Thallus and Luke spoke about 'a strange darkness.'
False.
Thallus did not write of "a strange darkness".
quote:
"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake." -Thallus
Apparently he did.
False.
They are not the words of Thallus.
We do not have any works of Thallus extant.
quote:
What law did it violate?
Eclipses do not last 3 hours.
quote:
If no one recorded it then we wouldn't arguing about that, now would we?
No-one recorded it.
It is mentioned only in a story from decades afterwards.
Thallus later mentioned an unrelated eclipse which a LATER Christian MIS-interpreted.
quote:
We don't know who else may have recorded it. The scrolls may not have survived.
What nonsense.
We DO have many records of eclipses and astronomical events of the period as I listed - they do NOT include the Christian legend.
This is a well-known desperate ploy when there is NO evidence at all for some fantastic belief - pretend there might be some evidence out there somewhere, maybe destroyed, maybe hidden.
May as well pretend there were scrolls proving the Invisible Pink Unicorn - only they were all destroyed.
Iasion
Edited by Iasion, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-16-2006 11:11 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-17-2006 11:24 AM Kapyong has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 113 (340793)
08-17-2006 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Kapyong
08-17-2006 5:25 AM


Re: Misinterpretations
False.
Thallus did not write of "a strange darkness".
First you say he doesn't mention earthquakes, then you say he doesn't mention darkness.
quote:
:"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake." -Thallus
\\
False.
They are not the words of Thallus.
We do not have any works of Thallus extant.
If there are no extant works then how is it we know who he is? If historians keep track of people through writings, then doesn't make sense that they paraphrased his writings? I love it how atheists only call into question matters of antiquity when it points to Jesus Christ. But they have no problem with believing Plato's works. Plato's wroks have long since been destroyed by time. All of the works are copies made by other peolpe. You don't call that into question, but you call into question Julianus Africanus who quoted Thallus. Pathetic.
Eclipses do not last 3 hours.
That's because it probably wasn't an eclipse. Everyone reading the passage simply assumes that it was an eclipse.
No-one recorded it.
It is mentioned only in a story from decades afterwards.
You're not very bright are you? If it wasnt recorded, whether it was an actual event in human history or not, we still would not be discussing it. Of course it was recorded. That recording is the very basis of our arguing, the only difference being that I believe it was legitimate and you don't.
Thallus later mentioned an unrelated eclipse which a LATER Christian MIS-interpreted.
If NONE of Thallus' works have survived, then how would you know what he mentioned either way? You just want so badly to discredit the Bible that you are contradicting yourself along the way.
We DO have many records of eclipses and astronomical events of the period as I listed - they do NOT include the Christian legend.
I know that you eclipses occur and have occured. The only thing I mentioned was that eclipses do not occur on the Passover, hence, the 'fearful darkness' was not due to an eclipse but of something else. Obviously, the two people who recorded it, Luke and Thallus, thought it to be of suoernatural origin.
This is a well-known desperate ploy when there is NO evidence at all for some fantastic belief - pretend there might be some evidence out there somewhere, maybe destroyed, maybe hidden.
Desperate ploy? Even if I had a million pieces of evidence, you'd ask for a million and one more. If you don't believe in the Deity of Christ then don't. Let it be on your own head.
May as well pretend there were scrolls proving the Invisible Pink Unicorn - only they were all destroyed.
I wouldn't know either way and neither would you. Nor would I care.

“If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” -Steve Turner

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Kapyong, posted 08-17-2006 5:25 AM Kapyong has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 08-17-2006 11:41 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 36 by Brian, posted 08-17-2006 12:39 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 42 by Kapyong, posted 08-17-2006 8:36 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 113 (340800)
08-17-2006 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Hyroglyphx
08-17-2006 11:24 AM


Re: Misinterpretations
You're not very bright are you? If it wasnt recorded, whether it was an actual event in human history or not, we still would not be discussing it. Of course it was recorded. That recording is the very basis of our arguing, the only difference being that I believe it was legitimate and you don't.
I doubt anyone would question if you said it was likely a local event. To assert that it is world-wide would need some corroborating information. It is that evidence which is lacking. It is the same issue as the alleged great wetting. There were lots of folk around at the time the flood supposedly happened. None of them, including the Egyptians who were very familar with flooding, noticed.
To assert a world-wide darkining you need to find reliable reports that can verify the event. Something of the magnitude you assert, a sudden darkening that lasts for three hours and then goes away should have been unusual enough that EVERY society over about half the globe should have recorded it. It's not the kind of thing that just gets covered on page ten.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-17-2006 11:24 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-17-2006 12:10 PM jar has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 34 of 113 (340804)
08-17-2006 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by mjfloresta
08-16-2006 12:19 PM


Re: synoptics do mention it
Hi,
I'm a little confused; was the event recorded in the other Gospels or not? You say they aren't in the first sentence but they are in the second.
Yes, I made a formating error, I fixed it now, thanks for pointing it out.
someone has to have the original content.
Not at all, it is perfectly feasible that no one had the original content, and since we do not have any original Gospel we do not know how often the stories have changed. Here's how it could have went. Mark wrote his Gospel first, Matthew copied it and added to it, Mark read matthew and altered his own Gospel, so the Gospels we have today could be copied off each other.
It is oft supposed that Matthew and Luke borrowed from Mark; however, consider that Matthew was one of the apostles and would have had no reason to borrow from Mark or any other source.
You also have to consider the fact that Matthew's Gospel (in fact all of the Gosepls) is an anonymous work, so we don;t know if it was written by the apostle or not.
Mark, supposed to be John Mark, received his information directly from the apostle Peter.
Again, an anonymous work. What a text claims for itself isn't always the truth, a little bit of spice helps sales.
And Luke, by his own testimony, was meticulous in gathering eye-witness testimony of the events of his gospel.
As has been pointed out, this is a strange reading of the text.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by mjfloresta, posted 08-16-2006 12:19 PM mjfloresta has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by ramoss, posted 08-17-2006 9:11 PM Brian has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 113 (340809)
08-17-2006 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
08-17-2006 11:41 AM


Re: Misinterpretations
I doubt anyone would question if you said it was likely a local event.
I tried to be objective and say that it perhaps was localized in the Med area. The whole world could've meant the Meditteranean to Thallus. But that's not really what the argument is on. The argument is whether this event happened or not. Luke said it did and so did Thallus.
To assert that it is world-wide would need some corroborating information. It is that evidence which is lacking. It is the same issue as the alleged great wetting. There were lots of folk around at the time the flood supposedly happened. None of them, including the Egyptians who were very familar with flooding, noticed.
Jesus spoke about the "alleged wetting." So if you base your Christainity on the Bible, then you should believe what Jesus says about it. If you malign the Bible in plenary, then what gives you the belief in Jesus to begin with. Its quite the catch-22. Secondly, there were lots of folks around at the time of the Deluge but they all died, save 8 people. Of those 8 people, there are Flood legends all over the world. While its true that their stories have taken on a mind of their own, the fact that they all contain a righteous man, world-wide innundation, a vessel of some kind, its cause was supernatural in origin, etc...
To assert a world-wide darkining you need to find reliable reports that can verify the event. Something of the magnitude you assert, a sudden darkening that lasts for three hours and then goes away should have been unusual enough that EVERY society over about half the globe should have recorded it. It's not the kind of thing that just gets covered on page ten.
Perhaps everyone did write about it and some manuscripts did not survive decay. I actually forgot about Phlegon, who also recorded it.
http://www.oxleigh.freeserve.co.uk/sstb.ch.08.htm
Listen, if you don't want to believe it then don't. I do though.

“If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” -Steve Turner

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 08-17-2006 11:41 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 08-17-2006 1:08 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 36 of 113 (340823)
08-17-2006 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Hyroglyphx
08-17-2006 11:24 AM


Re: Misinterpretations
Hi,
Could you perhaps help me out here and tell me where Thallus wrote: "On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake."
Hope this isn't too inconvenient.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-17-2006 11:24 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-17-2006 6:22 PM Brian has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 37 of 113 (340832)
08-17-2006 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Hyroglyphx
08-17-2006 12:10 PM


Re: Misinterpretations
Where in any of that is a contemporary account? What is needed is something produced around 33AD that supports the story. Things written 100 years later or 300 years later don't add much weight. And to even limit to the Med covers a pretty broad area. We should see repots from Gibralter to Tunis, Ahwaz to Nubia, in Greece, in Rome.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-17-2006 12:10 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-17-2006 6:28 PM jar has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 113 (340887)
08-17-2006 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Brian
08-17-2006 12:39 PM


Re: Misinterpretations
Could you perhaps help me out here and tell me where Thallus wrote: "On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake."
In his third issue of his books, entitled, "Histories."

“It is in vain, O' man, that you seek within yourselves the cure for all your miseries. All your insight has led you to the knowledge that it is not in yourselves that you will discover the true and the good.” -Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Brian, posted 08-17-2006 12:39 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Kapyong, posted 08-17-2006 8:45 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 52 by Brian, posted 08-18-2006 5:50 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 53 by ramoss, posted 08-18-2006 7:18 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 113 (340889)
08-17-2006 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
08-17-2006 1:08 PM


Re: Misinterpretations
Where in any of that is a contemporary account? What is needed is something produced around 33AD that supports the story. Things written 100 years later or 300 years later don't add much weight. And to even limit to the Med covers a pretty broad area. We should see repots from Gibralter to Tunis, Ahwaz to Nubia, in Greece, in Rome.
Yes, unless those books did not survive decay which is entirely possible. But, again, if you want to remain skeptical and challenge the historicity of the Bible and of certain extra-biblical writ that corroborates the Biblical account, you are more than welcome to that. However, I wonder why it is that no one questions other antiquities that sometimes come to us off of a second or thirdhand testimony. For instance, there is none of Plato's actual handwritting still in existence. Other historians that came after him transposed his documents to preserve his words. How come no one thinks to question the authenticity of his works? Isn't that incredibly biased? If the logic that undermines Thallus' account is to be considered, then all of antiquity should be brought into question in a similar fashion.

“It is in vain, O' man, that you seek within yourselves the cure for all your miseries. All your insight has led you to the knowledge that it is not in yourselves that you will discover the true and the good.” -Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 08-17-2006 1:08 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 08-17-2006 6:40 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 44 by Kapyong, posted 08-17-2006 8:53 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 113 (340895)
08-17-2006 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Hyroglyphx
08-17-2006 6:28 PM


Re: Misinterpretations
What makes you think no one questions the origin of Platos works? Further, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. What does that have to do with any of this discussion? When Plato writes about the cave, does anyone imagine that he is refering to some literal cave?
Sorry, but that argument is just a non-starter.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-17-2006 6:28 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-17-2006 7:16 PM jar has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 113 (340905)
08-17-2006 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
08-17-2006 6:40 PM


Re: Misinterpretations
What makes you think no one questions the origin of Platos works? Further, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. What does that have to do with any of this discussion? When Plato writes about the cave, does anyone imagine that he is refering to some literal cave?
Perhaps you've never read Plato's works. Much of it is off the wall, as it deals with mythology. But that is realy besides the point. I gave you referrences to the OP's question. There are 2 extra-biblical referrences that corroborate the gospels account. That is all that I can do. You either can believe or not believe. Your disdain tells me that you don't believe. So don't, and be happy with that decision.

“It is in vain, O' man, that you seek within yourselves the cure for all your miseries. All your insight has led you to the knowledge that it is not in yourselves that you will discover the true and the good.” -Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 08-17-2006 6:40 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Kapyong, posted 08-17-2006 8:59 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 42 of 113 (340921)
08-17-2006 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Hyroglyphx
08-17-2006 11:24 AM


Re: Misinterpretations
Greetings,
You have made a basic errorm but do not appear able to grasp it, or admit it -
quote:
"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake." -Thallus
These are NOT the words of Thallus.
You are wrong.
They are the words of Julius Africanus, who wrote :
quote:
"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."
These are the words of a CHRISTIAN from CENTURIES later.
What this tells us is that Thallus refered to an eclipse.
So what?
There WAS an eclipse in this period.
Thallus refered to a REAL eclipse which REALLY happened.
Then,
CENTURIES later, Africanus read Thallus and CLAIMED the real eclipse mentioned by Thallus was the Christian darkness.
This is merely a CLAIM by a Christian.
There is NO evidence Thallus referred to any abnormal event.
There is NO evidence Thallus referred to an earthquake.
quote:
If there are no extant works then how is it we know who he is?
There are no extant works of Jesus either - so, how do YOU know who he allegedly was?
quote:
If historians keep track of people through writings, then doesn't make sense that they paraphrased his writings? I love it how atheists only call into question matters of antiquity when it points to Jesus Christ.
False.
I am not an atheist.
And sceptics question ALL ancient works.
Christians however, accept any old fantasy if it supports there beliefs.
quote:
But they have no problem with believing Plato's works. Plato's wroks have long since been destroyed by time.
People do NOT "believe Plato's works" - you don't seem to understand anything about history. Plato's works DO exist.
quote:
All of the works are copies made by other peolpe.
Just like the Bible.
quote:
You don't call that into question,
We DO call it into question, like any ancient work.
But Christians refuse to question anything about there fantastic beliefs.
quote:
but you call into question Julianus Africanus who quoted Thallus. Pathetic.
It is your inabiity to grasp basic facts which is pathetic.
Africanus DID NOT quote Thallus.
Get your facts straight.
Africanus mentioned a comment by Thallus - not a quote.
Thallus apparently mentioned a REAL ecplise which really happened.
But in your fantasy world, this is evidence of a totally different and un-natural fantastic event.
quote:
That's because it probably wasn't an eclipse. Everyone reading the passage simply assumes that it was an eclipse.
Eclipses happen.
Fantasy darknesses do not.
quote:
You're not very bright are you? If it wasnt recorded, whether it was an actual event in human history or not, we still would not be discussing it. Of course it was recorded. That recording is the very basis of our arguing, the only difference being that I believe it was legitimate and you don't.
You are so stuck in your fantasy world, you cannot tell the difference between RECORDS and STORIES.
There is NO record of the event - I cited many RECORDS of eclipses and astronomical events of the period.
These RECORDS we DO have of eclipses etc - contain NO mention of your fantasy event, which WOULD have been recorded.
Instead, you have a FANTASY mentioned in a STORY.
Fantasies in stories are not records.
But according to you they are.
According to you, the fantasy of Apuleis turning into an ass is true - it is recorded in the Transformations of Lucius.
quote:
If NONE of Thallus' works have survived, then how would you know what he mentioned either way? You just want so badly to discredit the Bible that you are contradicting yourself along the way.
Seriously, do you not understand this?
We do NOT have any of Thallus's works.
We DO have some comments ABOUT Thallus in OTHER books.
This is a basic concept, why can't you grasp it?
quote:
I know that you eclipses occur and have occured. The only thing I mentioned was that eclipses do not occur on the Passover, hence, the 'fearful darkness' was not due to an eclipse but of something else. Obviously, the two people who recorded it, Luke and Thallus, thought it to be of suoernatural origin.
G.Luke did not "record" anything. He wrote a story, based on the early story of G.Mark.
Thallus did not "record" it either - he mentioned an ECLIPSE, which really happened.
But YOU pretend this normal eclipse was your fantasy event.
quote:
Desperate ploy? Even if I had a million pieces of evidence, you'd ask for a million and one more. If you don't believe in the Deity of Christ then don't. Let it be on your own head.
You don't have even ONE piece of evidence - just stories and claims.
quote:
I wouldn't know either way and neither would you. Nor would I care.
Well readers, there we have it :-)
NJ cannot tell if the IPU is real.
Incredible.
Iasion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-17-2006 11:24 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-17-2006 10:19 PM Kapyong has replied

  
Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 43 of 113 (340924)
08-17-2006 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Hyroglyphx
08-17-2006 6:22 PM


Re: Misinterpretations
Greetings,
Here is what JULIUS AFRICANUS wrote :
"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."
But NJ simply cannot grasp that Thallus did not write those words.
Thallus refered to an ecplise - we do not know exactly what he said. But we DO know there WAS an eclipse in that period.
So, Thallus simply refered to a REAL eclipse, but Aficanus thought he meant the Christian event.
A claim by a Christian from centuries later is no proof.
Iasion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-17-2006 6:22 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 44 of 113 (340927)
08-17-2006 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Hyroglyphx
08-17-2006 6:28 PM


Re: Misinterpretations
Greetings,
quote:
Yes, unless those books did not survive decay which is entirely possible. But, again, if you want to remain skeptical and challenge the historicity of the Bible and of certain extra-biblical writ that corroborates the Biblical account, you are more than welcome to that.
Do you believe the Koran?
Or the Gita?
Or the myths of Osiris?
Or do you only apologises and support ONE stream of religious legends?
quote:
However, I wonder why it is that no one questions other antiquities that sometimes come to us off of a second or thirdhand testimony.
Wrong again.
All ancient works are questioned.
But Chrstians just cannot accept questioning of THEIR legends.
quote:
For instance, there is none of Plato's actual handwritting still in existence.
Correct.
So what?
quote:
Other historians that came after him transposed his documents to preserve his words. How come no one thinks to question the authenticity of his works? Isn't that incredibly biased?
They ARE questioned. Like all ancient works.
You just don't the facts.
quote:
If the logic that undermines Thallus' account is to be considered, then all of antiquity should be brought into question in a similar fashion.
It IS - you just don't know the facts.
Socrates is questioned - some claim he did not exist.
Some scholars claim Mohamed did not exist.
William Tell - legendary.
All of antiquity is questioned - but no-one cares much about Socrates' existence.
Christians however, reject any questioning of their legends, with spurious arguments like yours.
Iasion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-17-2006 6:28 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 45 of 113 (340928)
08-17-2006 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Hyroglyphx
08-17-2006 7:16 PM


Re: Misinterpretations
Greetings,
quote:
Perhaps you've never read Plato's works. Much of it is off the wall, as it deals with mythology. But that is realy besides the point.
No-one pretends Plato's stories are real.
Unlike Christians who argue their myths are true.
quote:
I gave you referrences to the OP's question. There are 2 extra-biblical referrences that corroborate the gospels account.
No there are not.
All you have is a later Christian believer from CENTURIES after the event,
who CLAIMED that a mention of a REAL eclipse
was referring to the Christian fantasy event.
There is no actual evidence that Thallus was referring to the Christian fantasy event. That is just wishful thinking by Christians such as Julius and NJ.
And,
the actual RECORDS we DO have of eclipses etc. do NOT mention the Christian fantasy event.
Iasion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-17-2006 7:16 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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