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Author Topic:   Poll; theist, atheist or agnostic
ringo
Member (Idle past 494 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 241 of 295 (341345)
08-19-2006 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by iano
08-19-2006 11:01 AM


Re: The symbolic ladder to Heaven
iano writes:
If our own knowing means one cannot know then adding the knowledge of others (consensus) who cannot know either is simply the sum of no one knowing anything. 1+1+1+1+1+1+1 = 1
Your math is off. It should be 0+0+0+0+0+0+0 = 0.

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jar
Member
Posts: 34054
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 242 of 295 (341363)
08-19-2006 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by Archer Opteryx
08-19-2006 6:01 AM


Re: Ladder Unto Heaven
All in all, the arrangement fits the fundamentalist picture rather well. Everything right where one would expect to find it.
While that might be true it is very unlikely that it reflects reality. If there is a GOD and afterlife the reality is that there will probably be far more atheists and agnostics in heaven than theists and that even among theists, Christians will be a small minority.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-19-2006 6:01 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

mitchellmckain
Member (Idle past 6505 days)
Posts: 60
From: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
Joined: 08-14-2006


Message 243 of 295 (341391)
08-19-2006 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Archer Opteryx
08-19-2006 6:01 AM


Re: Ladder Unto Heaven
Archer writes:
When we look at your Ladder--starting at the top, where the cream rises--we see the upper rungs indeed occupied by Theists.
...
In the middle of the list, suspended between realms above and below, we find the Agnostics. Their limbo state places them neither above,
...
At bottom of the list, in the pit farthest removed from heaven, lie the Atheists and the Unclassifiable--cast down, as it were, across the great chasm. Oh, woe, woe!
Wow you are like the religious in your insistence on seeing meaning in the random events of life. Of course since I prefer work on my laptop upside down so that I have all that extra blood supply in my brain, what you see as up is what I see as down, so maybe n_j is really a Satanist.
P.S. In other words, don't be absurd!

See my relativistic physics of space flight simimulator at Astahost.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-19-2006 6:01 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 244 of 295 (341402)
08-19-2006 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Archer Opteryx
08-19-2006 6:01 AM


Re: Ladder Unto Heaven
Not diabolical, perhaps, but your list arrangement is suggestive. One can interpret it as a kind of Ladder Unto Heaven that corresponds amazingly well with the fundamentalist world view.
The list follows the order of those who voted. If you go back starting with the first page and follow along, I listed in order of appearance, not a list of importance.
Fundamentalists, as you know, view everything in black and white with few shades of grey. Theirs is a world of Saved or Unsaved, Us or Them, Covenant People or Gentiles, Elect or Damned. The only ambiguity allowed in the picture is temporary. It comes in the form of someone who is undecided--the 'honest seeker' who is 'confused'. In other words, the Potential Recruit.
You say that like its a bad thing....?
Fundamentalists do not grant that their category 'Saved' corresponds to our category 'Theists', of course. But being a Theist is a prerequisite. The Saved will represent a subset of the set Theists; no one outside that set need apply.
Most of the people on the 'theist' list are not in any sense synonymous with Fundamentalists. Most seem to take a more Deist approach than anything else. So, your assumption isn't correct.
When we look at your Ladder--starting at the top, where the cream rises--we see the upper rungs indeed occupied by Theists. It is they who stand nearest to God, first in line to enter heaven when the gates open. The figure at the top of the list looks almost transfigured, ecstatic, as if already gazing on the celestial joys within.
I'm the OP. Since I happen to be a theist, I was the first vote. therefore, it starts with theists. Robinrohan is the first vote for atheists, therefore he tops the list. It isn't an order of importance, or alphebetical, saved or unsaved, it was an order of appearance.
In the middle of the list, suspended between realms above and below, we find the Agnostics. Their limbo state places them neither above, with the transfigured ones, nor below, with the wretched souls who have already said in their hearts 'There is no god.' But it is assumed (it already has been, in this thread) that no one wants to remain in this limbo state. These are the 'seekers' who will one day make their decision: In The Camp or Out.
Agnostics are placed in the middle somewhat symbolically because they are the middle of the road. It distinguishes from the polar extremes of theism to atheism.
At bottom of the list, in the pit farthest removed from heaven, lie the Atheists and the Unclassifiable--cast down, as it were, across the great chasm. Oh, woe, woe!
That wasn't by design. And if it was, it was purely an unconscious manifestation.
All in all, the arrangement fits the fundamentalist picture rather well. Everything right where one would expect to find it.
Maybe so, but it wasn't by design.
I would have used alphabetical order, myself.

“It is in vain, O' man, that you seek within yourselves the cure for all your miseries. All your insight has led you to the knowledge that it is not in yourselves that you will discover the true and the good.” -Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-19-2006 6:01 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-19-2006 5:02 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 245 of 295 (341403)
08-19-2006 2:11 PM


Update
THEIST
1. Nemesis Juggernaut
2. Faith
3. Mjfloresta
4. Catholic Scientist
5. Percy
6. Iano
7. Arachnophilia
8. Buzsaw
9. Phat
10. Jazzns
11. Trixie
12. Tal
13. GDR
14. Anglagard
15. Purpledawn
16. MitchellMckain
17. Obvious Child
AGNOSTIC
1. Creavolution
2. Omnivorous
3. Schrafinator
4. MangyTiger
5. Rail Bird
6. Rick JB
7. Inflixion
8. Tusko
9. Ekman
10. ReverendDG
11. U can call me Cookie
12. Wounded King
13. Fragallrocks
14. Codegate
ATHEIST
1. Robinrohan
2. Ramoss
3. Subbie
4. Annafan
5. Chronos
6. Corpagyps
7. Randy Feagley
8. Crashfrog
9. Mutty6969
10. CK
11. Chiroptera
12. Michael
13. Nighttrain
14. NosyNed
15. Jaderis
16. Parasomnium
17. Quetzal
18. NeuroCycle
19. Mick
20. Minnemouseus
21. Kalimero
22. Sidelined
23. TS
24. Kisimons
NONE OF OUR BUISNESS
1. DrJones
RINGO-- IN A CLASS BY HIMSELF
1. RINGO (there can only be one Ringo to rule them all)

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 246 of 295 (341404)
08-19-2006 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Phat
08-19-2006 10:50 AM


Re: The symbolic ladder to Heaven
Nemesis Juggernaut, you do have some critics (message#237) that have a valid point. Methinks the purpose of the list(s) was to get a clear idea of how many EvC posters fit each category, rather than any inferences that EvC is one giant Lost and Found! It is human nature to categorize people, and as long as it is not done in any sort of prejudicial manner, I see no harm in it.
Like I informed Archer, if what he suggests is true, then I did on the unconscious level. It was not out of derision.
I think that we are all agnostics in a way, though---in that we do not know anything beyond our internal belief and choice within our hearts and minds.
We all have a bit of agnosticism in us. Heck, I still have remnants of such proclivities still tatooed on my body.

“It is in vain, O' man, that you seek within yourselves the cure for all your miseries. All your insight has led you to the knowledge that it is not in yourselves that you will discover the true and the good.” -Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Phat, posted 08-19-2006 10:50 AM Phat has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 247 of 295 (341405)
08-19-2006 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by mitchellmckain
08-19-2006 1:37 PM


Re: Ladder Unto Heaven
double posted
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : No reason given.

“It is in vain, O' man, that you seek within yourselves the cure for all your miseries. All your insight has led you to the knowledge that it is not in yourselves that you will discover the true and the good.” -Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 248 of 295 (341406)
08-19-2006 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by mitchellmckain
08-19-2006 1:37 PM


Re: Ladder Unto Heaven
Wow you are like the religious in your insistence on seeing meaning in the random events of life. Of course since I prefer work on my laptop upside down so that I have all that extra blood supply in my brain, what you see as up is what I see as down, so maybe n_j is really a Satanist.
Yeah, I thought it was a bit of a stretch too.
P.S. All hail the goatlord!

“It is in vain, O' man, that you seek within yourselves the cure for all your miseries. All your insight has led you to the knowledge that it is not in yourselves that you will discover the true and the good.” -Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by mitchellmckain, posted 08-19-2006 1:37 PM mitchellmckain has not replied

Mercury
Junior Member (Idle past 767 days)
Posts: 23
From: Socorro, NM, USA
Joined: 06-04-2006


Message 249 of 295 (341447)
08-19-2006 4:56 PM


Atheist, at least for now.

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3679 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 250 of 295 (341452)
08-19-2006 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Hyroglyphx
08-19-2006 2:10 PM


Re: Ladder Unto Heaven
I wrote:
Fundamentalists do not grant that their category 'Saved' corresponds to our category 'Theists', of course. But being a Theist is a prerequisite. The Saved will represent a subset of the set Theists; no one outside that set need apply.
n_j responded:
Most of the people on the 'theist' list are not in any sense synonymous with Fundamentalists. Most seem to take a more Deist approach than anything else. So, your assumption isn't correct.
You didn't understand me. The 'assumption' is a statement of fact.
I pointed out that, in the Fundamentalist world view, the 'Saved' have to be Theists. One is a subset of the other. This is an accurate representation of their view. The terms are terms they would accept.
Your response does not negate this. You assert only that not all Theists fit the fundamentalist definition of Saved. Of course not--that's how sets and subsets work.
Another look at my statement will show I said as much, on both counts.
At no point did my post attempt to fix a label--'fundamentalist' or any other--on individuals here. It merely pointed out ways in which the list's order of categories corresponds to the well-known fundamentalist world view.
My post did not speculate on the reasons for the correspondence. Many reasons can be suggested, including happenstance. I noted only that the correspondence exists.
mitchellmckain writes:
what you see as up is what I see as down, so maybe n_j is really a Satanist.
Just noting correspondences. But I liked your comment that the exercise was 'like the religious.' My point exactly.
An order that appears neutral to some observers can carry different connotations for others. You say yourself that such patterns of thought are characteristic of 'the religious.' Indeed they are.
Cool avatar, by the way.

Archer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-19-2006 2:10 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
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mitchellmckain
Member (Idle past 6505 days)
Posts: 60
From: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
Joined: 08-14-2006


Message 251 of 295 (341500)
08-19-2006 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Archer Opteryx
08-19-2006 5:02 PM


Re: Ladder Unto Heaven
Archer writes:
An order that appears neutral to some observers can carry different connotations for others. You say yourself that such patterns of thought are characteristic of 'the religious.' Indeed they are.
Yep. But just because we're paranoid doesn't mean somethin's not out to get us.
Archer writes:
Cool avatar, by the way.
Sure. Go is my favorite game. And I love games. But I am a "Hikaru no Go" fanatic. I have watched all 70 episodes 7-8 times.

See my relativistic physics of space flight simimulator at Astahost.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-19-2006 5:02 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 252 of 295 (341551)
08-19-2006 10:00 PM


More updates
THEIST
1. Nemesis Juggernaut
2. Faith
3. Mjfloresta
4. Catholic Scientist
5. Percy
6. Iano
7. Arachnophilia
8. Buzsaw
9. Phat
10. Jazzns
11. Trixie
12. Tal
13. GDR
14. Anglagard
15. Purpledawn
16. MitchellMckain
17. Obvious Child
AGNOSTIC
1. Creavolution
2. Omnivorous
3. Schrafinator
4. MangyTiger
5. Rail Bird
6. Rick JB
7. Inflixion
8. Tusko
9. Ekman
10. ReverendDG
11. U can call me Cookie
12. Wounded King
13. Fragallrocks
14. Codegate
ATHEIST
1. Robinrohan
2. Ramoss
3. Subbie
4. Annafan
5. Chronos
6. Corpagyps
7. Randy Feagley
8. Crashfrog
9. Mutty6969
10. CK
11. Chiroptera
12. Michael
13. Nighttrain
14. NosyNed
15. Jaderis
16. Parasomnium
17. Quetzal
18. NeuroCycle
19. Mick
20. Minnemouseus
21. Kalimero
22. Sidelined
23. TS
24. Kisimons
25. Beatle Addict
NONE OF OUR BUISNESS
1. DrJones
RINGO-- IN A CLASS BY HIMSELF
1. RINGO (there can only be one Ringo to rule them all)
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typo

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 253 of 295 (341654)
08-20-2006 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Hyroglyphx
08-19-2006 10:00 PM


Re: More updates
RINGO-- IN A CLASS BY HIMSELF
1. RINGO (there can only be one Ringo to rule them all)
ringo copped out?
come on ringo, i was really curious


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-19-2006 10:00 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 08-20-2006 3:24 AM arachnophilia has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 494 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 254 of 295 (341694)
08-20-2006 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by arachnophilia
08-20-2006 1:58 AM


Re: More updates
arachnophilia writes:
ringo copped out?
come on ringo, i was really curious
It's not a cop-out. I am all over the place.
Although I appreciate nemesis_juggernaut finally showing a sense of humour about something, my point was partly serious. All of us are in a category by ourselves. We can't really know where anybody else stands. All we can do is guess who seems to be standing close to us.
Setting up arbitrary categories is just asking people which float they want to ride on.
I prefer to march to my own drummer.
(Alternate answer: I am God. )

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by arachnophilia, posted 08-20-2006 1:58 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by purpledawn, posted 08-20-2006 7:38 AM ringo has replied
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3539 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 255 of 295 (341704)
08-20-2006 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by ringo
08-20-2006 3:24 AM


Re: More updates
quote:
Setting up arbitrary categories is just asking people which float they want to ride on.
I prefer to march to my own drummer.
I don't think they really have a label for me. I've never been good a fitting into niches.
Notice I labeled myself a Deist, since I reject the rituals of organized religion, and got put under the Theists.
The biggest problem with a poll like this is that some people expect you to always debate from your own personal position or belief.
We should be able to debate from whatever position we choose for that thread. I do think one needs to stay consistant within a thread, but in a new thread a person could choose to take the opposite stance.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 08-20-2006 3:24 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-20-2006 11:20 AM purpledawn has not replied
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