EvC Forum: An Inconvenient Truth

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Topic: An Inconvenient Truth

RAZD

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Message 1 of 119 (341435)
08-19-2006 4:29 PM

My (I'm so proud) son sent me these links:

http://www.climatecrisis.net/
"(the take action page is most use full)"
http://www.stopglobalwarming.org/default.asp
Home - Vote Solar

http://www.climatecrisis.net/aboutthebook/

Al Gore’s groundbreaking book, An Inconvenient Truth, brings together leading-edge research from top scientists around the world, as well as photographs, charts, and other illustrations to document the reality of global warming--and to sound a warning bell for action before it’s too late. Filled with personal anecdotes and observations about how this issue has become a central focus in Mr. Gore’s life--and why he believes it is the crucial issue of our time--AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH argues that global warming is not just about science, nor is it just a political issue: it is a moral issue and we have a responsibility to do something about it. Destined to become a classic, this accessible, entertaining, and thorough book is a unique reference for anyone who wants more information about global warming as well a guidebook for those who want to join the fight.

Available wherever books are sold and on Amazon.com

I've said for some time that it is irrelevant whether or not man caused or just increased global warming, as the pertinent questions are (1) what will it be like? (2) will we like it? and (3) if not, is there anything we can do about it?

Anyone seen the movie yet?

Enjoy

(book nook methinkth, but maybe coffeehouse if there is a lot of discussion)

Edited by RAZD, : added word

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Replies to this message:
	Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2006 7:09 PM	RAZD has replied
	Message 37 by riVeRraT, posted 08-20-2006 9:11 PM	RAZD has replied

RAZD

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Posts: 20714

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Message 4 of 119 (341523)
08-19-2006 9:15 PM

Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
08-19-2006 7:09 PM

is holmes lurking out there?

I ask anyone who disagrees to put forth a scientific paper that has been published in a relevant article that lays a contrary case, or specifies an alternative mechanism for all that anomalous CO2.

Perhaps this will pull holmes out of lurking mode -- he's had comments on this before

I searched but could only find the Global warming - fact or conspiracy? and he's not on that one (nice graphs on the last post there btw).

{abe}
Ah it was in regard to storms being bigger and more violent (& whether it was a result of global warming) Message 31
{/abe}

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : added {}

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RAZD

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Message 35 of 119 (341784)
08-20-2006 6:39 PM

Reply to: Message 6 by Hyroglyphx
08-19-2006 11:02 PM

Re: Global Warming

What if the apparent Warming effect so happened to be a natural cycle of the earth.

...I have not seen the movie and ...

So you are voicing opinion without having studied the available information? Just on what you have picked up from the media coverage (and the conservative party line)?

Putting it off as "a natural cycle of the earth" does not mitigate

the effect it will have on the planet and all the species living on it, or

our responsibility for contributions to it.

We cannot deny that industrial and popular use of hydrocarbon fuels have contributed to global warming. See Crashfrogs graphs at Message 100 -- like these:

and

Do you think this trend is not happening?

If you concur that it is happening, do you think we should do nothing about it?

That's the question eh? Wallow in apathy or act to curtail what effects we can curtail but what means we can employ?

Enjoy.

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	Message 6 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-19-2006 11:02 PM		Hyroglyphx has not replied

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	Message 46 by Silent H, posted 08-21-2006 6:32 AM		RAZD has replied

RAZD

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Posts: 20714

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Message 39 of 119 (341814)
08-20-2006 10:18 PM

Reply to: Message 38 by MangyTiger
08-20-2006 9:39 PM

Re: Global Warming

From your link:

The comprehensive analysis found that the amount of ice dumped into the Atlantic Ocean has doubled in the last five years.

That's a major shift eh? Maybe the George Strait song "Ocean Front Property in Arizona" will become a reality ... life imitating art?

Ocean Front Property Lyrics - George Strait - Cowboy Lyrics

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RAZD

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Message 41 of 119 (341816)
08-20-2006 10:25 PM

Reply to: Message 37 by riVeRraT
08-20-2006 9:11 PM

another robertson scam in the making?

Pat Robertson ... wants to do something about it.

Yeah, like he did for Katrina? Sorry if my jaded perspective only sees someone that makes his living from shilling and scamming people as just adding another scam to his list.

Word is that he diverted money from Katrina aid to {fly\buy} equipment for his gold-mine in s. africa.

Robertson Katrina aid goldmine - Google Search

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	Message 37 by riVeRraT, posted 08-20-2006 9:11 PM		riVeRraT has replied

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RAZD

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Message 42 of 119 (341821)
08-20-2006 10:27 PM

Reply to: Message 40 by crashfrog
08-20-2006 10:22 PM

Re: Global Warming

I learned that most scientists think that, should those ice sheets melt, Greenland would probably become an archapelego rather than one single mega-island.

On the bright side it might become green ...

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	Message 43 by kuresu, posted 08-20-2006 10:37 PM		RAZD has replied

RAZD

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Posts: 20714

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Message 44 of 119 (341824)
08-20-2006 10:40 PM

Reply to: Message 43 by kuresu
08-20-2006 10:37 PM

Re: Global Warming

Don't you know? It's all about real-estate advertising. Eric the Red sold Greenland as a better Iceland.

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	Message 43 by kuresu, posted 08-20-2006 10:37 PM		kuresu has replied

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RAZD

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Posts: 20714

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Message 53 of 119 (342178)
08-21-2006 10:23 PM

Reply to: Message 52 by crashfrog
08-21-2006 5:47 PM

Re: Global Warming

We also need to consider other aspects of man's alterations on nature and their effect on global warming and the concentration of greenhouse gases.

One of the jokes about global warming was that there was more methane produced by cows than by humans ... but when you consider that the reason there are such large herds of cows is for human food it puts it in a different light.

If you look at the ice core data you see a spike at 10,000 years ago, and then a plateau in the temperatures.

10,000 years ago is when agriculture started, with attendant clearing of forest and shrub land (usually by burning) to raise crops. This inceases the heating of the planet by reducing the airconditioning effect of forest cover. This also produces CO₂.

The effect on man on the planet extends further into the past than just the industrial period.

I also see a spike in the red line (CO₂) at the zero time (

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RAZD

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Posts: 20714

From: the other end of the sidewalk

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Message 54 of 119 (342181)
08-21-2006 10:47 PM

Reply to: Message 46 by Silent H
08-21-2006 6:32 AM

Re: Global Warming

... I can tell certain people here claiming that we've had evidence for 40 years that they are talking way beyond what they know.

I also know that in '70 and '71 I was involved with a student group of interdisciplinary {engineer\science\other} types discussing global warming, the use of alternate fuels (wind, solar, fuel cell), to reduce greenhouse gas emmissions.

This work was based on the knowledge that (a) man is producing greenhouse gases and (b) greenhouse gases correlate with higher temperatures. What was not known was the effects of other mechanisms (cows to volcanoes) and the ability of the planet to absorb high concentrations. This does not mean that we did not know that what we were doing would have some effect on the global temperatures, it was more a question of how much and how soon.

I think that there is sufficient evidence to maintain that use of hydrocarbons (though it doesn't just have to be for fuel) effects atmospheric temperatures.

Good. Add that to {we know temperatures are rising} and it would indicate a need for action rather than restraint whether the rise is entirely due to our action or we have only caused part of it.

Massive deforestation and urbanization of landscape (both of which increase local temps and effect CO2 levels at the same time) cannot be helping things any.

As noted in post to crash, this has possibly been a more major impact of man over the last 10,000 years than the industrial use of hydrocarbons. Now, however we have BOTH such impactive activity being increased (if not accelerated) while people still deny that temperatures are in fact rising.

I agree with this assessment totally, and it IS what is being missed by those in industry and politicians supporting a singular view of how industry must operate. We can't count on natural cycles of the earth to conveniently work in conjunction with what we do, we must work with the natural cycles of the earth. Or at least if we want to live comfortably we must keep that in mind.

Then we should not advocate restrain in dealing with the impacts we are having on those temperatures that we may just find "inconvenient" (at best).

The facts are that temps fluctuate on the earth. There is no evidence to indicate that CO2 or other modern manmade influences can push us past what we have seen at any other time in earth's history...

and there is no evidence that we can't push it faster and higher than ever before either.

I'd like to end by pointing out how cold the earth has been according to those temp records. If we saw temperatures beginning to plunge and a connection to a manmade influence, ...

Yes, that may be the way nature ultimately restores balance: drastic changes to weather patterns, loss of the deep sea conveyor and the poles plunge into an ice age while the tropics bake.

There have been chaotic changes in the past, and we don't know what kicks them into occurring, but hey, let's push the envelope anyway eh?

The evidence is also that venus had a much more temperate environment at the early stages of life in the solar system: what is the threshold at which it converted to a hostile environment? Do we really want to experiment with the only planet we have at the moment?

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD

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Message 85 of 119 (343993)
08-27-2006 3:50 PM

Reply to: Message 84 by kuresu
08-27-2006 3:38 PM

Re: Reasonable proposals for dealing with the consequences of enhanced greenhouse war

That was from the cover not an article

Scientific American: Science News, Expert Analysis, Health Research - Scientific American

The articles I found are:

September 2006 issue, INTRODUCTION -- A Climate Repair Manual

The debate on global warming is over. Present levels of carbon dioxide--nearing 400 parts per million (ppm) in the earth's atmosphere--are higher than they have been at any time in the past 650,000 years and could easily surpass 500 ppm by the year 2050 without radical intervention.

and

August 25, 2006 -- Ice Age gives clues to global warming: study

OSLO (Reuters) - Ice Age evidence confirms that a doubling of greenhouse gases could drive up world temperatures by about 3 Celsius (5.4 Fahrenheit), causing havoc with the climate, a study showed on Friday.

The researchers made a novel check of computer climate forecasts about the modern impact of heat-trapping gases, widely blamed on use of fossil fuels, against ice cores and marine sediments from the last Ice Age which ended 10,000 years ago.

The findings broadly back up other Potsdam forecasts about the effects of a build-up of carbon dioxide emitted by power plants, cars and factories. Some skeptics dismiss such models as exaggerations.

Temperatures have already risen by 0.6 Celsius since before the Industrial Revolution in the 18th century. Many scientists project that higher temperatures will cause more heatwaves, droughts, floods and rising sea levels.

Greenhouse gas concentrations are likely to double from pre-Industrial levels this century unless the world drastically cuts energy use and shifts to clean wind or solar power.

The Potsdam scientists worked out 1,000 climate model versions, each with different assumptions of the behavior of clouds, ocean currents and other factors.

They then checked the likelihood of the scenarios against climate shifts at the end of the Ice Age -- carbon dioxide trapped in air bubbles in ice and the chemical makeup of marine sediments which gives clues to temperatures.

Schneider said the study, published in the journal Climate Dynamics, indicated that the outer ranges of likely temperature rises were 1.2-4.3 Celsius if carbon dioxide levels doubled.

The question is fast becoming what can be done - or do we accept the resulting changes?

Enjoy.

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	Message 84 by kuresu, posted 08-27-2006 3:38 PM		kuresu has replied

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	Message 86 by kuresu, posted 08-27-2006 3:59 PM		RAZD has replied

RAZD

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Message 87 of 119 (343998)
08-27-2006 4:22 PM

Reply to: Message 86 by kuresu
08-27-2006 3:59 PM

Re: Reasonable proposals for dealing with the consequences of enhanced greenhouse war

... looking down the barrel of a gun normally isn't pleasant.

You could always invest in future waterfront ...

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	Message 86 by kuresu, posted 08-27-2006 3:59 PM		kuresu has replied

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	Message 88 by kuresu, posted 08-27-2006 4:25 PM		RAZD has replied

RAZD

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Posts: 20714

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Message 90 of 119 (344039)
08-27-2006 7:30 PM

Reply to: Message 88 by kuresu
08-27-2006 4:25 PM

Ocean front property in Arizona

what's that song called.

see Message 39

Of course a 20 foot rise in sea level will make rebuilding New Orleans moot -- unless they go with the venice model ... turn the roads into canals and dam off the lower floors (or fill them) and build up as the base continues to sink into the muck.

The bigger problem in my opinion will be changing weather patterns. Places that were moist becoming dry and vice versa.

Looks like I'll have to get to the library for the sept SciAm ... or pick one up in the airport if I fly to texas next week ...

Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 88 by kuresu, posted 08-27-2006 4:25 PM		kuresu has replied

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	Message 91 by kuresu, posted 08-27-2006 8:13 PM	RAZD has replied
	Message 100 by Silent H, posted 08-28-2006 6:45 AM	RAZD has replied

RAZD

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Posts: 20714

From: the other end of the sidewalk

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Message 92 of 119 (344065)
08-27-2006 9:07 PM

Reply to: Message 91 by kuresu
08-27-2006 8:13 PM

Re: Ocean front property in Arizona

we don't know, but if the arctic ice melts and allows surface currents the weather at the top of the world will change.

If substantial parts of the mississippi vally flood with shallow seas the gulf coast type weather will move north.

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	Message 93 by anglagard, posted 08-27-2006 9:15 PM		RAZD has replied

RAZD

Member (Idle past 1426 days)

Posts: 20714

From: the other end of the sidewalk

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Message 94 of 119 (344071)
08-27-2006 9:36 PM

Reply to: Message 93 by anglagard
08-27-2006 9:15 PM

Re: Ocean front property in Arizona

Not exactly, but probably generally valid. What will change that are things that change where and when rain will fall -- some places that get rain now could be bypassed in an altered system.

The one thing that global warming does is add energy to the weather\ocean systems.

This either ends up as heat or as movement.

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RAZD

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Posts: 20714

From: the other end of the sidewalk

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Message 103 of 119 (344438)
08-28-2006 7:56 PM

Reply to: Message 100 by Silent H
08-28-2006 6:45 AM

Re: Ocean front property in Arizona

I don't see why New Orleans couldn't use the Netherlands model.

New Orleans is on a delta extending out into the gulf, and would need dikes on all four sides, what with Lake Pontrechaine to the north ... it could be done but ...

Personally I think Venice would be a much more practical model, especially as NOLA is a MAJOR port for the whole USof(N)A and this would make it even more useful in that regard.

Can I ask if this is the kind of material found in Gore's movie?

It's in the trailer -- with a qualification.

But really, don't you think that any thorough plan for NOLA would have to consider:

(1) the delta will continue to subside for the foreseable future, and
(2) the possibility is high that ocean levels will continue to rise for the forseable future

And that a prudent model would consider "worst case scenarios" of subsidence and rise?

Thanks.

BTW -- saw a blurb on a paper that said Schwubbia was a "victim" of Katrina ...

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 100 by Silent H, posted 08-28-2006 6:45 AM		Silent H has replied

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