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Author | Topic: Poll; theist, atheist or agnostic | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: If our own knowing means one cannot know then adding the knowledge of others (consensus) who cannot know either is simply the sum of no one knowing anything. 1+1+1+1+1+1+1 = 1 Your math is off. It should be 0+0+0+0+0+0+0 = 0. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
All in all, the arrangement fits the fundamentalist picture rather well. Everything right where one would expect to find it. While that might be true it is very unlikely that it reflects reality. If there is a GOD and afterlife the reality is that there will probably be far more atheists and agnostics in heaven than theists and that even among theists, Christians will be a small minority. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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mitchellmckain Member (Idle past 6451 days) Posts: 60 From: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA Joined: |
Archer writes: When we look at your Ladder--starting at the top, where the cream rises--we see the upper rungs indeed occupied by Theists.... In the middle of the list, suspended between realms above and below, we find the Agnostics. Their limbo state places them neither above, ... At bottom of the list, in the pit farthest removed from heaven, lie the Atheists and the Unclassifiable--cast down, as it were, across the great chasm. Oh, woe, woe! Wow you are like the religious in your insistence on seeing meaning in the random events of life. Of course since I prefer work on my laptop upside down so that I have all that extra blood supply in my brain, what you see as up is what I see as down, so maybe n_j is really a Satanist. P.S. In other words, don't be absurd! See my relativistic physics of space flight simimulator at Astahost.com
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Not diabolical, perhaps, but your list arrangement is suggestive. One can interpret it as a kind of Ladder Unto Heaven that corresponds amazingly well with the fundamentalist world view. The list follows the order of those who voted. If you go back starting with the first page and follow along, I listed in order of appearance, not a list of importance.
Fundamentalists, as you know, view everything in black and white with few shades of grey. Theirs is a world of Saved or Unsaved, Us or Them, Covenant People or Gentiles, Elect or Damned. The only ambiguity allowed in the picture is temporary. It comes in the form of someone who is undecided--the 'honest seeker' who is 'confused'. In other words, the Potential Recruit. You say that like its a bad thing....?
Fundamentalists do not grant that their category 'Saved' corresponds to our category 'Theists', of course. But being a Theist is a prerequisite. The Saved will represent a subset of the set Theists; no one outside that set need apply. Most of the people on the 'theist' list are not in any sense synonymous with Fundamentalists. Most seem to take a more Deist approach than anything else. So, your assumption isn't correct.
When we look at your Ladder--starting at the top, where the cream rises--we see the upper rungs indeed occupied by Theists. It is they who stand nearest to God, first in line to enter heaven when the gates open. The figure at the top of the list looks almost transfigured, ecstatic, as if already gazing on the celestial joys within. I'm the OP. Since I happen to be a theist, I was the first vote. therefore, it starts with theists. Robinrohan is the first vote for atheists, therefore he tops the list. It isn't an order of importance, or alphebetical, saved or unsaved, it was an order of appearance.
In the middle of the list, suspended between realms above and below, we find the Agnostics. Their limbo state places them neither above, with the transfigured ones, nor below, with the wretched souls who have already said in their hearts 'There is no god.' But it is assumed (it already has been, in this thread) that no one wants to remain in this limbo state. These are the 'seekers' who will one day make their decision: In The Camp or Out. Agnostics are placed in the middle somewhat symbolically because they are the middle of the road. It distinguishes from the polar extremes of theism to atheism.
At bottom of the list, in the pit farthest removed from heaven, lie the Atheists and the Unclassifiable--cast down, as it were, across the great chasm. Oh, woe, woe! That wasn't by design. And if it was, it was purely an unconscious manifestation.
All in all, the arrangement fits the fundamentalist picture rather well. Everything right where one would expect to find it. Maybe so, but it wasn't by design. I would have used alphabetical order, myself. “It is in vain, O' man, that you seek within yourselves the cure for all your miseries. All your insight has led you to the knowledge that it is not in yourselves that you will discover the true and the good.” -Blaise Pascal
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
THEIST
1. Nemesis Juggernaut 2. Faith 3. Mjfloresta 4. Catholic Scientist 5. Percy 6. Iano 7. Arachnophilia 8. Buzsaw 9. Phat 10. Jazzns 11. Trixie 12. Tal 13. GDR 14. Anglagard 15. Purpledawn 16. MitchellMckain 17. Obvious Child AGNOSTIC1. Creavolution 2. Omnivorous 3. Schrafinator 4. MangyTiger 5. Rail Bird 6. Rick JB 7. Inflixion 8. Tusko 9. Ekman 10. ReverendDG 11. U can call me Cookie 12. Wounded King 13. Fragallrocks 14. Codegate ATHEIST1. Robinrohan 2. Ramoss 3. Subbie 4. Annafan 5. Chronos 6. Corpagyps 7. Randy Feagley 8. Crashfrog 9. Mutty6969 10. CK 11. Chiroptera 12. Michael 13. Nighttrain 14. NosyNed 15. Jaderis 16. Parasomnium 17. Quetzal 18. NeuroCycle 19. Mick 20. Minnemouseus 21. Kalimero 22. Sidelined 23. TS 24. Kisimons NONE OF OUR BUISNESS1. DrJones RINGO-- IN A CLASS BY HIMSELF1. RINGO (there can only be one Ringo to rule them all) |
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Nemesis Juggernaut, you do have some critics (message#237) that have a valid point. Methinks the purpose of the list(s) was to get a clear idea of how many EvC posters fit each category, rather than any inferences that EvC is one giant Lost and Found! It is human nature to categorize people, and as long as it is not done in any sort of prejudicial manner, I see no harm in it. Like I informed Archer, if what he suggests is true, then I did on the unconscious level. It was not out of derision.
I think that we are all agnostics in a way, though---in that we do not know anything beyond our internal belief and choice within our hearts and minds. We all have a bit of agnosticism in us. Heck, I still have remnants of such proclivities still tatooed on my body. “It is in vain, O' man, that you seek within yourselves the cure for all your miseries. All your insight has led you to the knowledge that it is not in yourselves that you will discover the true and the good.” -Blaise Pascal
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
double posted
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : No reason given. “It is in vain, O' man, that you seek within yourselves the cure for all your miseries. All your insight has led you to the knowledge that it is not in yourselves that you will discover the true and the good.” -Blaise Pascal
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Wow you are like the religious in your insistence on seeing meaning in the random events of life. Of course since I prefer work on my laptop upside down so that I have all that extra blood supply in my brain, what you see as up is what I see as down, so maybe n_j is really a Satanist. Yeah, I thought it was a bit of a stretch too. P.S. All hail the goatlord! “It is in vain, O' man, that you seek within yourselves the cure for all your miseries. All your insight has led you to the knowledge that it is not in yourselves that you will discover the true and the good.” -Blaise Pascal
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Mercury Junior Member (Idle past 714 days) Posts: 23 From: Socorro, NM, USA Joined: |
Atheist, at least for now.
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3625 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
I wrote:
Fundamentalists do not grant that their category 'Saved' corresponds to our category 'Theists', of course. But being a Theist is a prerequisite. The Saved will represent a subset of the set Theists; no one outside that set need apply. n_j responded:Most of the people on the 'theist' list are not in any sense synonymous with Fundamentalists. Most seem to take a more Deist approach than anything else. So, your assumption isn't correct. You didn't understand me. The 'assumption' is a statement of fact. I pointed out that, in the Fundamentalist world view, the 'Saved' have to be Theists. One is a subset of the other. This is an accurate representation of their view. The terms are terms they would accept. Your response does not negate this. You assert only that not all Theists fit the fundamentalist definition of Saved. Of course not--that's how sets and subsets work. Another look at my statement will show I said as much, on both counts. At no point did my post attempt to fix a label--'fundamentalist' or any other--on individuals here. It merely pointed out ways in which the list's order of categories corresponds to the well-known fundamentalist world view. My post did not speculate on the reasons for the correspondence. Many reasons can be suggested, including happenstance. I noted only that the correspondence exists. mitchellmckain writes:what you see as up is what I see as down, so maybe n_j is really a Satanist. Just noting correspondences. But I liked your comment that the exercise was 'like the religious.' My point exactly. An order that appears neutral to some observers can carry different connotations for others. You say yourself that such patterns of thought are characteristic of 'the religious.' Indeed they are. Cool avatar, by the way. Archer
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mitchellmckain Member (Idle past 6451 days) Posts: 60 From: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA Joined: |
Archer writes:
Yep. But just because we're paranoid doesn't mean somethin's not out to get us.
An order that appears neutral to some observers can carry different connotations for others. You say yourself that such patterns of thought are characteristic of 'the religious.' Indeed they are.
Archer writes:
Sure. Go is my favorite game. And I love games. But I am a "Hikaru no Go" fanatic. I have watched all 70 episodes 7-8 times.
Cool avatar, by the way.
See my relativistic physics of space flight simimulator at Astahost.com
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
THEIST
1. Nemesis Juggernaut 2. Faith 3. Mjfloresta 4. Catholic Scientist 5. Percy 6. Iano 7. Arachnophilia 8. Buzsaw 9. Phat 10. Jazzns 11. Trixie 12. Tal 13. GDR 14. Anglagard 15. Purpledawn 16. MitchellMckain 17. Obvious Child AGNOSTIC1. Creavolution 2. Omnivorous 3. Schrafinator 4. MangyTiger 5. Rail Bird 6. Rick JB 7. Inflixion 8. Tusko 9. Ekman 10. ReverendDG 11. U can call me Cookie 12. Wounded King 13. Fragallrocks 14. Codegate ATHEIST1. Robinrohan 2. Ramoss 3. Subbie 4. Annafan 5. Chronos 6. Corpagyps 7. Randy Feagley 8. Crashfrog 9. Mutty6969 10. CK 11. Chiroptera 12. Michael 13. Nighttrain 14. NosyNed 15. Jaderis 16. Parasomnium 17. Quetzal 18. NeuroCycle 19. Mick 20. Minnemouseus 21. Kalimero 22. Sidelined 23. TS 24. Kisimons 25. Beatle Addict NONE OF OUR BUISNESS1. DrJones RINGO-- IN A CLASS BY HIMSELF1. RINGO (there can only be one Ringo to rule them all) Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typo
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1372 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
RINGO-- IN A CLASS BY HIMSELF 1. RINGO (there can only be one Ringo to rule them all) ringo copped out? come on ringo, i was really curious
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
arachnophilia writes: ringo copped out? come on ringo, i was really curious It's not a cop-out. I am all over the place. Although I appreciate nemesis_juggernaut finally showing a sense of humour about something, my point was partly serious. All of us are in a category by ourselves. We can't really know where anybody else stands. All we can do is guess who seems to be standing close to us. Setting up arbitrary categories is just asking people which float they want to ride on.I prefer to march to my own drummer. (Alternate answer: I am God. ) Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I don't think they really have a label for me. I've never been good a fitting into niches. Notice I labeled myself a Deist, since I reject the rituals of organized religion, and got put under the Theists. The biggest problem with a poll like this is that some people expect you to always debate from your own personal position or belief. We should be able to debate from whatever position we choose for that thread. I do think one needs to stay consistant within a thread, but in a new thread a person could choose to take the opposite stance. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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