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Author Topic:   Natural Limitation to Evolutionary Processes (2/14/05)
nator
Member (Idle past 2196 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 239 of 299 (341870)
08-21-2006 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by Percy
08-20-2006 8:33 PM


quote:
Normally I don't mind repeating explanations, but I'm beginning to believe you're ignoring arguments as a tactic to exhaust the people discussing with you.
...which is what I've already pointed out just before this thread was moved over here.
I'm glad you think so too, Percy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Percy, posted 08-20-2006 8:33 PM Percy has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2196 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 243 of 299 (341941)
08-21-2006 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Faith
08-21-2006 12:08 PM


Re: Working against evolution? I'm afraid not.
quote:
The harmful mutations on the other hand, or most of them perhaps, and maybe I have this wrong but this is my impression, can be identified AS mutations by looking at the genetic material itself.
That is, many genetic diseases can be located on the DNA and studied there in terms of whether the gene is "broken" or not, produces a protein or not, or produces a wrong protein.
This is true for beneficial mutations as well.
For example, remember the immunity to HIV mutation we've mentioned?
Well, it is in the gene known as CCR5.
On top of that, the mutation is one of those that you say can only be detrimental, because it "broke" the normal functioning of immune cells by preventing the development of a receptor site on the cell.
source
Genetic resistance to AIDS works in different ways and appears in different ethnic groups. The most powerful form of resistance, caused by a genetic defect, is limited to people with European or Central Asian heritage. An estimated 1 percent of people descended from Northern Europeans are virtually immune to AIDS infection, with Swedes the most likely to be protected.
All those with the highest level of HIV immunity share a pair of mutated genes -- one in each chromosome -- that prevent their immune cells from developing a "receptor" that lets the AIDS virus break in. If the so-called CCR5 receptor -- which scientists say is akin to a lock -- isn't there, the virus can't break into the cell and take it over.
To be protected, people must inherit the genes from both parents; those who inherit a mutated gene from just one parent will end up with greater resistance against HIV than other people, but they won't be immune. An estimated 10 percent to 15 percent of those descended from Northern Europeans have the lesser protection.
Using formulas that estimate how long genetic mutations have been around, researchers have discovered that the mutation dates to the Middle Ages. (Similar research in mitochondrial DNA -- passed along by women -- has suggested that Europeans are all descended from seven Ice Age matriarchs.)
Why would the mutation stick around so long instead of giving up the ghost? Researchers initially thought the mutation provided protection against the bubonic plague that caused the Black Death in Europe. Those with the mutation would have lived longer and had more children while many of their neighbors died off. The fact that the genetic mutation also provided protection against HIV centuries later would just be a coincidence.
The plague scenario has been largely discarded in favor of another deadly scourge. "A disease like smallpox that has been continuous since that time ... is more likely," said Yale University professor of epidemiology Alison Galvani, who co-wrote a study about the possible smallpox link in 2003.
According to Galvani, while the plague came and went, smallpox stuck around well into the 20th century, providing even more incentive for a protective gene to live on: It would keep people alive generation after generation, instead of just during one brief epidemic.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Faith, posted 08-21-2006 12:08 PM Faith has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2196 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 249 of 299 (341956)
08-21-2006 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Faith
08-21-2006 12:53 PM


Re: No point in continuing the agony
quote:
OBSERVED errors. OBSERVED. Stuff you can point to in the DNA. Haven't seen this yet.
Gene CCR5.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Faith, posted 08-21-2006 12:53 PM Faith has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2196 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 250 of 299 (341958)
08-21-2006 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Faith
08-21-2006 1:19 PM


Re: Working against evolution? I'm afraid not.
quote:
In the Bible. An assumption is an a priori for which no evidence is required, and I offered mine as my counter to the assumption given by the evos, which also has no evidence for it, merely hypothetical guesses.
..and this is exactly why you moved this thread into a forum that doesn't require you to back up your scientific assertions with scientific evidence.
Isn't it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Faith, posted 08-21-2006 1:19 PM Faith has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2196 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 258 of 299 (342080)
08-21-2006 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Faith
08-21-2006 4:38 PM


Re: beneficial
quote:
OBSERVED errors. OBSERVED. Stuff you can point to in the DNA. Haven't seen this yet.
Gene CCR5.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Faith, posted 08-21-2006 4:38 PM Faith has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2196 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 268 of 299 (342189)
08-21-2006 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Faith
08-21-2006 9:41 PM


Re: wisdom teeth wisdom
quote:
Of course, that would be the evolutionally correct term, nice and neutral, implying neither good not bad. Which is all your whole post is about, promoting evolutionally correct thinking.
Jesus, Faith, is this all you have left?
I notice that you ignored the part of my message most damaging to your position. Since you don't like the single sentence you quoted, I'll leave it out.
Honestly address the specifics for once in your life. Please.
It will only hurt for a moment.
Well, what if a mutation caused the destruction of a disease-causing gene?
Would you consider that to be detrimental and negative?
And I also think you are harboring another misconception about what happens in this particular mutation.
This mutation is is a change in the nuceotide sequence. No genes have been lost (although that can happen, just as additions can also happen). I just have a different nucleotide sequence in that particular gene than someone who has all of their wisdom teeth.
Also, I have posted several reminders to you that the destruction of the CCR5 gene leads to immunity to HIV.
Is the destruction of that gene detrimental, in your eyes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 08-21-2006 9:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Faith, posted 08-22-2006 12:51 AM nator has not replied
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 08-22-2006 12:51 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2196 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 286 of 299 (342299)
08-22-2006 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by Wounded King
08-22-2006 7:09 AM


Re: The Solid Gold sheep
WK, Faith seems to not like me to be the messenger of the information regarding the CCR5 gene giving immunity to HIV and is refusing to respond to my posts, so could you pick up the banner?
Or anybody else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Wounded King, posted 08-22-2006 7:09 AM Wounded King has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2196 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 297 of 299 (342562)
08-22-2006 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Parasomnium
08-22-2006 10:59 AM


Re: Please, #300 is looming
quote:
Sorry about the thing with you and Schraf. Why can't you both just address the argument? Why must the fur always fly when you two meet? It's really a pity, because I think the pair of you are two of the more intelligent people on this forum. I usually enjoy reading posts of both of you.
First off, thank you very much!
Why can't we both just address the argument?
Well, I have grown immune to her insults, so I am not distracted and misdirected by them as I used to be.
But what I have not grown immune to is her outright refusal to address arguments and her tendency to completely, repeatedly ignore anything that is contrary to her preconceptions.
I get more frustrated with her than with others, perhaps, because I see that there is obviously a sizeable intellect hidden deep inside all of that religious willful ignorance.
She is, I suspect, better read in many subjects than I am, and is a better writer than I am by half. She's lived longer in the world and has more life experience than I do, to be sure. What I do have over her, however, is that I have no religious "mind filter", and that allows me to simply allow the evidence to guide my conclusions about a given theory.
Faith, I think, is still suffering under a number of utterly profound misconceptions about how science (in general) and Evolution (in specific) work, and unless something happens to break that filter she will never, ever understand.
She is doomed to ignorance, and that is a trajedy for someone so obviously bright.
No wonder she's so pissed off all the time.
Faith, please take this as it was intended; call it a critical, yet grudging homage to a long time foe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Parasomnium, posted 08-22-2006 10:59 AM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Omnivorous, posted 08-23-2006 12:49 AM nator has not replied

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