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Author Topic:   Information, Thought, & Physical Existance
ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5183 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 16 of 18 (341901)
08-21-2006 11:12 AM


can a thought exist if there is not a mind to think it?
If a thought is stored in any media, print or digital, then it is just ink or bytes. It means nothing till a mind enounters it and 'reads' it. only then does it become a thought again.
Information, like thought, is transient. It only exists at te moment of being read. Otherwise it means nothing it's just data. Ones and zeros. A byte stream that is beyond interpritation.
Information only exists at the moment of comprehention, however it is read.

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 18 (342008)
08-21-2006 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by NosyNed
08-21-2006 3:57 AM


Re: Thought persistance
Phat writes:
If I wrote a book and/or recorded my thoughts and ideas (or even music) then my thoughts would be preserved long after my physical body had died----right?
Ned writes:
Only if you think you have been preserved in a photograph taken of you. The "thoughts" that you can record in a book or other form are not much more of the actual thoughts that make up the conscious you than the photograph is your body.
Perhaps with a better recording medium it will be possible to talk about your "thoughts", in a more meaningful sense, being preserved.
A better term here might be "ideas" -- your ideas have been preserved and at the very, very most a tiny bit of the thoughts behind them.
Ideas, ideas....hmmmm
*ponder, ponder*
Webster writes:
Main Entry: idea
1 a : a transcendent entity that is a real pattern of which existing things are imperfect representations b : a standard of perfection : ideal c : a plan for action : design
2 archaic : a visible representation of a conception : a replica of a pattern
3 a obsolete : an image recalled by memory b : an indefinite or unformed conception c : an entity (as a thought, concept, sensation, or image) actually or potentially present to consciousness
4 : a formulated thought or opinion
5 : whatever is known or supposed about something a child's idea of time
6 : the central meaning or chief end of a particular action or situation
7 Christian Science : an image in Mind
-idea adjective
synonyms idea, concept, conception, thought, notion, impression meaning what exists in the mind as a representation (as of something comprehended) or as a formulation (as of a plan).
idea may apply to a mental image or formulation of something seen or known or imagined, to a pure abstraction, or to something assumed or vaguely sensed
concept may apply to the idea formed by consideration of instances of a species or genus or, more broadly, to any idea of what a thing ought to be
conception is often interchangeable with concept; it may stress the process of imagining or formulating rather than the result
thought is likely to suggest the result of reflecting, reasoning, or meditating rather than of imagining-- "commit your thoughts to paper". notion suggests an idea not much resolved by analysis or reflection and may suggest the capricious or accidental you have the oddest notions
.impression applies to an idea or notion resulting immediately from some stimulation of the senses the first impression is of soaring height.
It is clear that the progression of science lies in the ability to transmit and modify or refute ideas and concepts from one generation to another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by NosyNed, posted 08-21-2006 3:57 AM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by mick, posted 08-21-2006 3:30 PM Phat has not replied

  
mick
Member (Idle past 5007 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 18 of 18 (342018)
08-21-2006 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
08-21-2006 3:05 PM


Re: Thought persistance
A thought is not a "thing" but a physical experience that takes place over time.
If you record your thoughts, ideas, or music in a written form, or some other type of persistent medium, you are not recording your thoughts, but a representation of your thoughts which is contingent upon the notion that you live in a society where shared representations of thought (i.e. a language) exist.
For example, to read the first sentence of "Moby Dick" or to play the first few bars of a Bach fugue, is not to experience the same mental activity as Herman Melville or Bach. Your own experiences while playing the music might be quite different (i.e. nervous if you are in front of an audience, distracted if you are playing the piano in order to relax after a fight with your wife, etc.). Accessing the thoughts of others through a work of art requires "interpretation". An appreciation of the importance of interpretation can be best gained by comparing the Bach recordings of Alfred Brendel and Glenn Gould.
Phat writes:
It is clear that the progression of science lies in the ability to transmit and modify or refute ideas and concepts from one generation to another.
It is not ideas that are transmitted, but the representations of ideas. Given that interpretation of such representation is a personal psychological activity that varies with every individual, science has attempted to minimize the role of interpretation by adopting a highly formalized set of methodologies and representations. So I can read the ideas of Darwin, and understand them, without experiencing or needing to experience the thoughts of Darwin, which include distracting things such as a desire for fame or a fear of ignominy. Empricism and modern science per se can be understood to some extent as a flight from interpretation - albeit a failed one, with the rise of the "sociology of science" and "science studies"
Mick

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 08-21-2006 3:05 PM Phat has not replied

  
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