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Author Topic:   Is the TOE falsifiable and if it was, would it advance Biblical Creationism
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 31 of 169 (343622)
08-26-2006 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
08-26-2006 10:55 AM


Re: A puzzle
faith writes:
...there is no way to prove anything about the past.
Does this assertion include the content of the Bible?
faith writes:
If a dinosaur and a human fossil were found together, the theory would simply be adjusted to put humans farther back or dinosaurs farther into the future.
Perhaps, but I'm not saying it would falsify the entire ToE in one sweep! It would, however, provide your side of the argument with some supporting physical evidence - something which you totally lack at this point.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 08-26-2006 10:55 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 08-26-2006 2:42 PM RickJB has replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 32 of 169 (343626)
08-26-2006 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Archer Opteryx
08-26-2006 10:46 AM


Re: Creationism's blown opportunity
Archer writes:
It's worth noting that creationists recently had a golden opportunity to falsify the entire theory of evolution at one go. Evolutionary science would be dead today if they had succeeded.
Interesting. Do you have any links to articles from that time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-26-2006 10:46 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-27-2006 8:07 PM RickJB has not replied

  
mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 5993 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 33 of 169 (343628)
08-26-2006 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Archer Opteryx
08-26-2006 1:51 PM


Re: Creationism's blown opportunity
The mapping of the genome was a watershed moment. Evolutionary theory predicted what we would find. It was there. Creationists had made predictions, too. Nothing came of it.
What predictions are you talking about? None of the creation scientists or IDers that I'm familiar with made any genomic predictions that have been falsified...
The mapping of the genome has merely provided another framework to interpret relatedness of species. It does nothing to establish relatedness of one species to another.
In light of this, neither Creationist nor Evolutionary claims have been validated on the basis of the genome mapping..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-26-2006 1:51 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 34 of 169 (343639)
08-26-2006 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by RickJB
08-26-2006 2:14 PM


Re: A puzzle
there is no way to prove anything about the past.
Does this assertion include the content of the Bible?
Of course. The contents of the Bible are meant to be believed, not proved.
faith writes:
If a dinosaur and a human fossil were found together, the theory would simply be adjusted to put humans farther back or dinosaurs farther into the future.
Perhaps, but I'm not saying it would falsify the entire ToE in one sweep! It would, however, provide your side of the argument with some supporting physical evidence - something which you totally lack at this point.
No, it wouldn't even give us any supporting evidence. The ToE can swallow up anything, BECAUSE it is unfalsifiable.
Just consider jar's answer to the same post you are answering. That's how the ToE rationalization machine works.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by RickJB, posted 08-26-2006 2:14 PM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 08-26-2006 2:47 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 36 by RickJB, posted 08-26-2006 2:51 PM Faith has replied
 Message 40 by kuresu, posted 08-26-2006 8:54 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 169 (343640)
08-26-2006 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
08-26-2006 2:42 PM


Faith makes another important point.
No, it wouldn't even give us any supporting evidence.
Correct Faith. It would provide NO additional support for either the ID or YEC or the Biblical Creationist position. Until they can come up with their own models that explain ALL of the evidence better than any existing theories or any revisions of existing theories, they do not stand a chance of being taken seriously.
Until you put models on the table that better explain the data YEC and ID and Biblical Creationism are simply bankrupt and worthless.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 08-26-2006 2:42 PM Faith has not replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 36 of 169 (343644)
08-26-2006 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
08-26-2006 2:42 PM


Re: A puzzle
faith writes:
No, it wouldn't even give us any supporting evidence. The ToE can swallow up anything, BECAUSE it is unfalsifiable.
No, it is a sucessful theory with demonstrable predictive qualities.
All YEC folk have to do to fully falsify evolution is to formulate a competing hypothesis that better explains what we see in nature. You seem to be tacitly admitting that this isn't possible, however.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 08-26-2006 2:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 08-26-2006 9:58 PM RickJB has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 37 of 169 (343645)
08-26-2006 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
08-26-2006 1:39 PM


Re: Falsification
The best value-for-the-money way for creationists to cause headaches for ToE (if creationism is true) is to get busy mapping and dating fossil strata around the world. I'm talking about an aggressive series of geological expeditions. It's bound to reap dividends.
Creationists already know that the evolutionary sequence is only apparent and not real. The know that all the 'kinds' have coexisted since creation. It will therefore be no trouble at all to find fossil beds where whales appear next to orthocones, sauropods next to mammoths, therapsids next to ground sloths, trilobites next to water fowl, and stegosaurs next to Thag Simmons.
Creationists should go for the knockout punch here. Hold nothing back. We're not talking about isolated bits of stuff that paleontologists can 'explain away.' As 'kinds' have coexisted since the beginning of life on earth, whole mountain ranges surely exist out there, complete canyons and valleys, where the layering of the fossils presents one big mess for evolutionists to explain.
If scientists haven't found these places yet, it's obvious they are not looking hard enough. Creationists should not leave this work to biased evolutionary scientists who would just cover it up anyway. Creationists need to get busy and do that job for them--and this time, do it right.
Creationists can start raising money now and the first expeditions could set out in just months. And it would not cost that much. The amount creationists spend now on court costs, apologetics and theme parks could easily fund a sustained series of global scientific expeditions. These teams could easily gather enough evidence in 10-15 years to throw the entire mythical chronology of evolution into disarray. In fact, given the huge expanses of geological strata out there that will validate creationism, the odds are very good that enough evidence can be gathered sooner.
The existence of these vast fields of 'out-of-sequence' fossils would be enough, if not to falsify the ToE outright, to invalidate its entire imaginary chronology of life on earth. Once that blow is struck, scientists in other fields will see which way the wind is blowing--and smell the career-making discoveries to be made. They will begin conducting their own followup research--in genetics, in cladistics, in dating methods. The illusory theory of evolution will fall like a house of cards.
I think creationists should get busy on these expeditions right away. The approach has an excellent chance of working (if creationism is true).

Archer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 08-26-2006 1:39 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by obvious Child, posted 08-26-2006 8:22 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4116 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 38 of 169 (343758)
08-26-2006 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Archer Opteryx
08-26-2006 2:53 PM


Re: Falsification
and how will that disprove things given that dating supports evolution, and that every refinment of dating methods only keeps advancing the accuracy of most of the fossil record?
Simply finding a mastadon in the same area as a t-rex doesn't prove squat when they are dated to be millions of years apart.
Creationists have tried to do this by planting false evidence, such as a rusty hammer in the same area as dinosaur prints.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-26-2006 2:53 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-26-2006 8:52 PM obvious Child has replied
 Message 41 by Brad McFall, posted 08-26-2006 8:56 PM obvious Child has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 39 of 169 (343773)
08-26-2006 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by obvious Child
08-26-2006 8:22 PM


Re: Falsification
obvious Child:
and how will that disprove things given that dating supports evolution, and that every refinment of dating methods only keeps advancing the accuracy of most of the fossil record?
Simply finding a mastadon in the same area as a t-rex doesn't prove squat when they are dated to be millions of years apart.
Oh, that's no trouble. The geological expeditions creationists send out will also date the fossils by scientifically accepted means and show beyond the shadow of a doubt that the currently accepted chronology of natural history is a lot of hooey.
That's why I say it's great value for the money. They can falsify multiple aspects of the ToE for the price of a few expeditions.
If creationism is true.
Creationists have tried to do this by planting false evidence, such as a rusty hammer in the same area as dinosaur prints.
Tacky. Really tacky.

Archer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by obvious Child, posted 08-26-2006 8:22 PM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by obvious Child, posted 08-27-2006 2:15 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 40 of 169 (343775)
08-26-2006 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
08-26-2006 2:42 PM


Re: A puzzle
The contents of the Bible are meant to be believed, not proved.
good. so now you will no longer try to prove that the flood did happen and that the earth is only x thousand years old. that the fall is real, and the cause of all our misery, that God is real, or anything else in the bible really, really did happen?
or is that just a slip up, and the bible should be accepted as the truth?

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 08-26-2006 2:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 08-26-2006 10:02 PM kuresu has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 41 of 169 (343776)
08-26-2006 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by obvious Child
08-26-2006 8:22 PM


Re: Falsification only after error
What Biblical Creationist's can do is to further the conflicting maxims
quote:
Kant The Critique of Judgment
that I believe Faith re-cognized today
EvC Forum: Is there really such a thing as a beneficial mutation?
beyond that which accumulated (downloadable version at second bullet "audio and video") from 1994
Phillip E. Johnson - Wikipedia
.
This would show that the recursion of evolutionary theory cybernetically into social regions of dispute actually broadens rather than narrows the field of scientific discussion.
From such an edifice of learning errors might be revealed peeking through current prejudice. Retractions would be unnecessary. This is what happened since 94.
Edited by Brad McFall, : reference source
Edited by Brad McFall, : disclosure

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by obvious Child, posted 08-26-2006 8:22 PM obvious Child has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 42 of 169 (343791)
08-26-2006 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by RickJB
08-26-2006 2:51 PM


Re: A puzzle
All YEC folk have to do to fully falsify evolution is to formulate a competing hypothesis that better explains what we see in nature. You seem to be tacitly admitting that this isn't possible, however.
You see our hypothesis in action in our answers on threads like this. What's actually needed is for evos to recognize the sense we are making.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by RickJB, posted 08-26-2006 2:51 PM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by RickJB, posted 08-27-2006 11:10 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 43 of 169 (343794)
08-26-2006 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by kuresu
08-26-2006 8:54 PM


Re: A puzzle
good. so now you will no longer try to prove that the flood did happen and that the earth is only x thousand years old. that the fall is real, and the cause of all our misery, that God is real, or anything else in the bible really, really did happen?
or is that just a slip up, and the bible should be accepted as the truth?
If one believes something, one believes it is the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by kuresu, posted 08-26-2006 8:54 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by kuresu, posted 08-26-2006 10:10 PM Faith has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 44 of 169 (343796)
08-26-2006 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
08-26-2006 10:02 PM


Re: A puzzle
ahh, but it is your truth. not another's truth. in fact, no one else's truth will do. only yours.
good thing science isn't based off of belief. Then we wouldn't get anywhere, would we?
"no, my truth is right!"
"no it's not, mine is!"
(academy of sciences in some unkown place in the universe, following the wrong rules of science)

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 08-26-2006 10:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 08-26-2006 11:09 PM kuresu has replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 45 of 169 (343805)
08-26-2006 10:53 PM


Flip and peer
Can TOE be knocked off its perch? Of course TOE can be falsified. Back in Creation Times, God (in omniscience mode) pondered the very same question. How, He thought to Himself, can I outwit those smarty-pants evolutionists who will bob up in the future? Thus, if you flip over a cell, tattoed in very,very, fine print, will you find the message 'Property of YHWH'.

  
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