Insect diversity falsifies the worldwide flood.

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As far as vegetation, seeds can remain on the surface and begin to germinate once in good soil after the waters recede.

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Normally yes, however with the flood the amount of salt that would have been left on the soil would have made plant growth nearly impossible for everything but salt tolerant plants, few of which are edible to humans or as feed to herbivores.

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As far as vegetation, seeds can remain on the surface and begin to germinate once in good soil after the waters recede.

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I didn't respond to this before because it is off topic, but is also false regarding many seeds and there would be little if any "good soil" after a flood the supposedly rearranged all the earth's geology. Why don't you try putting a wide variety of seeds in water for a year, then throw them on top of land with the top soil washed away by year long flood and see how may germinate? There is reason the YECs have never done this experiment.What is a bit more on topic here is that all those plants that require insects for pollination of their seeds would be in big trouble since few if any of the required pollinators could have survived the global flood. Even if Noah had a beehive on the ark it would take a long time to reestablish bees all over the earth.Randy

May be they have already heard what you have to say before. But perhaps others (like me) have not. If you are not willing to engage people in a reasonable constructive conversation, why even post in this fora at all?

You're replying to a post from four years ago. After this initial participation Tranquility Base was gone for quite a while. In the time aferwards I often pondered the reasons why despite his claims to be a scientist that we still seemed to speak no common language, and I resolved that if he ever returned I would require that he contribute in a scientific manner.Tranquility Base returned last year and began a thread called Recolonization Flood/Post-Flood model. You can find my summary at Message 238. You might find Message 143 interesting, too.--Percy

well randy, YEC don't engage in science no? Therefore you wouldn't expect experiments from their side.Also after the flood the soil would be so waterlogged very few species could actually germinate or grow. Not to mention that many hardwood tries require that their seeds be exposed to fire before they can germinate. Not really happening with the flood.I don't even think it would be possible to reestablish pollinators. Bees require pollen to produce honey and 'jelly.' The plants that reseeded the world would have taken months to flower. How would the bees have survived such a significent length of time with no food source?Plus I don't understand how species such as lady bugs could have survived when their primary food source requires a plant that couldn't reproduce in sufficent numbers in sufficent time.

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I don't even think it would be possible to reestablish pollinators. Bees require pollen to produce honey and 'jelly.' The plants that reseeded the world would have taken months to flower. How would the bees have survived such a significent length of time with no food source?

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Good point. One would assume that all honeybee hives as well as the hives of bees like bumble bees that live in holes in the ground would have been destroyed along with all other ground dwelling insects by a flood that supposedly deposited a significant fraction of the earth geology. Then even if there were a few survivors there would be nothing for most of them to eat with no plant life.

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Plus I don't understand how species such as lady bugs could have survived when their primary food source requires a plant that couldn't reproduce in sufficent numbers in sufficent time.

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This is true of many other species as well. Monarch butterflies for example need living milkweed plants to survive. No living milkweed no monarchs. Do you suppose Noah was cultivating some milkweed on the ark for the monarchs. He would also have to have been cultivating a few hundred (Added in edit: or maybe several thousand
) other plant species for other insects that live on specific plants. Maybe he had them all growing in the forest on the ark that sustained the cicadas. Maybe the forest on the ark had a little stream and some ponds for the many insect species that only survive in fresh water or fresh running water but somehow I doubt it.RandyEdited by Randy, : Added thousands above.

First I would like to make 1 small comment: Ladybugs (and their larvae) are predators that feed mostly on Aphids. Thank goodness there were Ladybugs on the Arc or they would have been over-run by Aphids in a year's time.This is an interesting discussion, but a little puzzling to this newcomer. Are the creationists really arguing that evolution is the mechanism that accounts for the insect diversity that has supposedly arisen since the flood?? So they are willing to invoke evolution when it suits them even though they clearly do not understand the ToE? They seem to be ignoring the abundant insect fossils that exist for most living orders. For example, there are fossils that clearly show the developement, over millions of years, of wing veination characters that define the 5 families and 3 sub-families of living dragonflies. Are we suppossed to believe that these same features evolved all over again since the flood? Randy, you have not even addressed how the monarchs get transplanted from Mt Ararat to North America. Even for monarchs that is a bit far to migrate. Not to mention the literally millions of other species found on continents completely seperated from Turkey. It is not just insect species diversity, but their distribution that makes the flood story disagree with observable evidence.Enjoy

you're forgettin one, simple explanation. See, the flood happened in the (ante diluvian?)--no it was after the fall, so post diluvian (or is it the fall?)At any rate, this means that 4500ish years ago, Pangea was still together. Never mind the fact that they have the tectonic plates moving to hteri current position in 500 years, but that's how you can get the monarchs to N. America.Oh, the mental acrobatics they must perform.

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All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

They seem to have an identity (ID) crisis LOL

you do too.Isn't albany the capital of new york?

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All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

nah antediluvian would be before the flood i love that about creationists, they take one line about pelag and make a whole-cloth mythology out of it, it doesn't even talk about the contients its about the nations being divided (groups talking land after the tower of babel) how do you turn nations into large landmasses like contients? wish they could translate them to the physical, maybe america could win the gold

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Randy, you have not even addressed how the monarchs get transplanted from Mt Ararat to North America. Even for monarchs that is a bit far to migrate. Not to mention the literally millions of other species found on continents completely seperated from Turkey. It is not just insect species diversity, but their distribution that makes the flood story disagree with observable evidence.

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I consider that off topic here. I have another thread on this forum on Biogeography but I didn't mention Butterflies.Randy

I got one major issue left (for now).Many insect species move from larva stage to adult in 3 days, sometimes as few as one. Given that they grow exponentially, how did the ark manage to accommodate millions of insect species all expanding at phenomenal rates? The sheer amount of bugs on the ark would have made it unbearable and unlivable. They would also have consumed the stored foods very quickly.