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Author Topic:   True Freedom
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 31 of 300 (343861)
08-27-2006 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by working out eating chips
08-26-2006 10:24 PM


In a nutshell
Out of all the philosophers that you have studied, which one seems to ring true for you? In other words, which philosopher that you have studied (and lets not include Jesus) seems to hit the nail on the head for you?
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Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 32 of 300 (343865)
08-27-2006 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by joshua221
08-27-2006 12:33 AM


Train of thought: Equality. Does it =freedom?
prophex writes:

...men in power attempting to give just enough to satisfy the masses, while a government of wealthy elites, like the founding fathers hold power.

We can agree that Capitalism usually produces Robber Barons and wealthy individuals.

Theoretically, the idea of freedom from possessions sounds very Lennonesque.

To Wit:

IMAGINE (by John Lennon)

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by joshua221, posted 08-27-2006 12:33 AM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by joshua221, posted 08-27-2006 11:02 PM Phat has responded

ikabod
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 33 of 300 (343894)
08-27-2006 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
08-26-2006 8:42 PM


i think freedom is one of those words our language has made to be a oppersite to how the natural world is .

like cold , we talk about cold as if its a quanity and how things get colder .. when if fact its heat engery we are talking about

the world imposes a wide range of constrains apon use , what we call freedom is a label for the amount of constraint we are experiencing ... there is no measure of freedom , no absolute point of max freedom , only a scale of constraint .

we are constrained

biologically by out bodies and whay we can get them to do ..

By our interlectual developement .. we cant all understand the great philosiphers , let alone try to use the imparted ideas

we sufffer cultural constraint in how we behave , and this even dircets our so called rebelions shape

economic constrains go with out saying

as do political ones

every time we "make our self free" we are trying to deal with a certain constraint , and every time our route is built apon and takes us to a nother set of constraints .

let us rebel vs the king and his nobles .. we can replace them with a elite of economic barons , or an elite of professional political power grabers , or an elite of militry strong men ....


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kuresu
Member (Idle past 588 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 34 of 300 (343988)
08-27-2006 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by ikabod
08-27-2006 4:51 AM


let us rebel vs the king and his nobles .. we can replace them with a elite of economic barons , or an elite of professional political power grabers , or an elite of militry strong men ....

. . . or me:)

for I am become death, the shatterer of worlds


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences
This message is a reply to:
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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 35 of 300 (344088)
08-27-2006 10:47 PM


Question to Evc
How do the individuals here who have jobs, and live as "normal" individuals cope with how meaningless most of it all is?

How do you find meaning in what you do?

And why do you think we are here?


Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 36 of 300 (344090)
08-27-2006 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by joshua221
08-27-2006 10:47 PM


Re: Question to Evc
We're here
because we're here
because we're here
because we're here...


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by joshua221, posted 08-27-2006 10:47 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 37 of 300 (344095)
08-27-2006 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
08-27-2006 10:52 PM


Re: Question to Evc
Let me rephrase?

Why were we created by God?


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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 300 (344096)
08-27-2006 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by joshua221
08-27-2006 10:58 PM


Re: Question to Evc
Gotta wait awhile to get that answer. But I bet it will be ....
because...

AbE:

Let me add this. Answering the Why question is a matter of history. It is a summation made at the end, a finally tally. Until then it is still being written, only after the fact does it graner any worth or meaning.

Edited by jar, : No reason given.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 39 of 300 (344097)
08-27-2006 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
08-27-2006 2:24 AM


Re: Train of thought: Equality. Does it =freedom?
Not to make it personal, or offend you at all.

But then why do you work at a grocery store, inside of the "system"?

System meaning, the system designed to give man false purpose, and keep men busy, and keep men from not changing things, and keeping men from transcending what is real.

Why?

It would be no different if I asked anyone else why they did any other job. But you brought it up, so I asked you Phat.

Your job is no less meaningful, or meaningless than any other job.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 08-27-2006 2:24 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 40 of 300 (344099)
08-27-2006 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
08-27-2006 10:59 PM


Re: Question to Evc
Thank you, I didn't want a non-answer, I guess I wanted to know that you needed to contemplate the answer to such a question as much as I also do, and have many times over.

The question is the most important question ever asked. The most complex question ever asked.

The world of thought opened up by this question is existentialism I guess.

Edited by prophex, : holla


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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 300 (344102)
08-27-2006 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by joshua221
08-27-2006 11:04 PM


Re: Question to Evc

Thank you, I didn't want a non-answer, I guess I wanted to know that you needed to contemplate the answer to such a question as much as I also do, and have many times over.

No, don't have to contemplate it.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 42 of 300 (344108)
08-27-2006 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
08-27-2006 10:59 PM


Re: Question to Evc
I can tell you human history in a few sentences. Human history shows nothing about why we are here, it shows what humans do when they don't know why they were born. They create societies, and men live and work, and toil. They "let their gardens grow" as Voltaire said. But they do not know why they are in the world, why they were created. Human history shows the exact opposite of why we were created. We were created to seek truth, to find the answers to these questions. To transcend so to speak, as over-used as my terms are becoming, I feel they are still valid.

But History shows nothing of any worth to answering these questions. It may show a few bright stars searching, philosophers who are remembered for the conclusions that they drew, but most of it is a void, empty, filled with mindless actions, and the search for worldly gain... Nothing.

What you said was simply an excuse, allowing your existance to be validated, and allowing your mind to rest.


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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1673 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 43 of 300 (344110)
08-27-2006 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by ikabod
08-27-2006 4:51 AM


influential philosophers
ikabod writes:

i think freedom is one of those words our language has made to be a oppersite to how the natural world is .

like cold , we talk about cold as if its a quanity and how things get colder .. when if fact its heat engery we are talking about

the world imposes a wide range of constrains apon use , what we call freedom is a label for the amount of constraint we are experiencing ... there is no measure of freedom , no absolute point of max freedom , only a scale of constraint .

Under heaven all can see beauty as beauty
only because there is ugliness.
All can know good as good
only because there is evil.

Having and not having arise together.
Difficult and easy complement each other.
Long and short contrast each other.
High and low rest upon each other.
Silence and sound harmonize each other.
Front and back follow one another.

A wise one thus does non-action and teaches non-talking.
All things rise and fall in their cycle.
Create, but do not possess.
Labor, but do not take credit.
Do your work, then forget it.
In this way it will last forever.

Lao Tsu

Tao Te Ching (2)
(tr. Feng/English, adapted)

Edited by Archer Opterix, : Correction.

Edited by Archer Opterix, : Correction.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by ikabod, posted 08-27-2006 4:51 AM ikabod has responded

Replies to this message:
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Ben!
Member (Idle past 1697 days)
Posts: 1154
From: San Diego, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 44 of 300 (344111)
08-27-2006 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by joshua221
08-27-2006 10:47 PM


Re: Question to Evc
How do the individuals here who have jobs, and live as "normal" individuals cope with how meaningless most of it all is?

Took me a long time to accept things as the way they are. So many things that go on are so beyond my ideals.

But then I realized that my ideals were just as fleeting as the ideals of the people I couldn't agree with. And I realized that things tend to be the way they are for a reason. Things tend to find stable points, tend to oscillate between extremes.

I accepted the world as it is because I believe it is the balance between many existing forces, that the world will always change and oscillate between ideals, and that being somebody who hangs onto ideals is being somebody who doesn't want to live in this world.

It was hard to let go, but I am a better person with a better life because of it.

How do you find meaning in what you do?

This is another one that I struggled with for a long time. I searched and searched for meaning. Never found it.

But then I noticed that there's lots of people who have meaning. So I observed them. Many of the people "found" their meaning without ever asking questions, without ever searching. These people seemed to "be born" with meaning.

Then there were people who went through some kind of depression or search during adolescence, who didn't seem to have meaning, then came across something (like music or science or business) that just GRABBED them and they were like "yeah! this is it!". That happened to my brother, to some friends, etc.

And so I asked myself, "why not me?" I explored so many things, searching for meaning, why didn't I stumble across one that was "it"? And I think I understand now why:

People learn meaning, just as they learn religion, values, right and wrong, language, how Tiger Woods learned golf. They learn meaning through their environment, through their ACTION, through their life experiences. They learn by doing, by enjoying, and by remembering.

I didn't learn meaning because I always acted with hesitation, I always asked "why" before I learned to DO. Meaning is unconscious, it is free of mind, it is from the gut. I never followed through on anything so purely, my mind was involved in everything. I failed, my parents failed, my environment failed to give me meaning.

But wait--there was one thing that always had meaning for me--love and understanding. Unfortunately, because I had no other bases, I always chased love and understanding without boundary, without any care in the world. To many it seemed romantic, but to do anything so purely is at the same time beautiful and very, very dangerous. I've had my fair share of bumps, bruises, and injuries because of it.

And so now, I accept that. I accept that I live without such a basic meaning. My meaning has become my search for meaning. In large part, I have answered it. Now, I try to answer the question, "what is it to be human?" I study cognitive neuroscience. I like it OK. But without love, it all falls apart again.

For what it's worth, that's me.

And why do you think we are here?

I don't ask this as a teleological question anymore. I am interested in ideas as to how we came to exist, but I am tired of assinging purpose to us. I'd rather just see us move towards living more in harmony with the world, and I'll be very satisfied with that broad brushstroke.

Sorry if I'm reapeating myself. And good luck with your questions, it's a tough place to be.

Ben


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by joshua221, posted 08-27-2006 10:47 PM joshua221 has responded

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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 45 of 300 (344112)
08-27-2006 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Ben!
08-27-2006 11:47 PM


Re: Question to Evc
Thanks Ben I really enjoyed your response. To love, I guess is one of the only worthwhile things in this world.
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