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Author Topic:   True Freedom
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 46 of 300 (344149)
08-28-2006 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by joshua221
08-27-2006 11:54 PM


Re: Question to Evc
How do the individuals here who have jobs, and live as "normal" individuals cope with how meaningless most of it all is?
I love. I love a lot of things.
I love going to work every day. I love being useful.
When you enjoy a task, it has meaning enough.
And I love the questions. Questions like these you ask.
No, the answers don't come easily. And the answers change depending on history, culture, and place, as you observe.
Interesting thing, though: the questions stay the same.
Wherever you find human beings, you find the same questions.
The questions may be our best clue.
We are the creatures who want it to mean something. We are the creatures who ask.
How do you find meaning in what you do?
I love. I love what I experience, what I do, what I create, what I share... and the people I share it with.
We are here only a brief time. But brief does not mean insignificant.
Beauties glow brightest when we know tomorrow they will be gone.
It is when something we love is leaving us, even as we embrace it, that it appears most precious.
And everything is leaving.
And why do you think we are here?
We are here because somebody got laid.
It's not a bad reason. Not at all.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by joshua221, posted 08-27-2006 11:54 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Silent H, posted 08-28-2006 7:11 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied
 Message 66 by joshua221, posted 08-28-2006 5:32 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 47 of 300 (344153)
08-28-2006 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by joshua221
08-27-2006 11:02 PM


Re: Train of thought: Equality. Does it =freedom?
prophex writes:
why do you work at a grocery store, inside of the "system"?
I guess I have always been tied up in the system.
I have made some poor decisions in my financial life and I owe the system a good $42,000.00! Additionally, I have found no way---aside from living under a bridge and carrying a sign, of escaping the obligations of rent and bills. I dont mean to sound like a hypocritical idealist, but I am trapped in the system!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by joshua221, posted 08-27-2006 11:02 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by joshua221, posted 08-28-2006 5:37 PM Phat has replied

ikabod
Member (Idle past 4493 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 48 of 300 (344173)
08-28-2006 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by kuresu
08-27-2006 3:30 PM


all hail the mighty Kuresu overlord of the universe
, btw as your here boss i have a list of faults that you need to fix , lets start with the a's and work our way through , there are only 23 pages of a's then we can move on to the b's , there is more of them .......
oh the freedom of power . . . . .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by kuresu, posted 08-27-2006 3:30 PM kuresu has not replied

ikabod
Member (Idle past 4493 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 49 of 300 (344178)
08-28-2006 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Archer Opteryx
08-27-2006 11:36 PM


Re: influential philosophers
very nice poem , but i must say i do not agree with all its statement s , i think good and evil , in real sense are different , and many of the other are perceptions , not actuals ...
but i guess that would be very off topic so ill stop there

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-27-2006 11:36 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-28-2006 6:03 AM ikabod has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 50 of 300 (344214)
08-28-2006 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by ikabod
08-28-2006 3:26 AM


Re: influential philosophers
ikabod:
very nice poem , but i must say i do not agree with all its statement s , i think good and evil , in real sense are different , and many of the other are perceptions , not actuals ...
That line of translation is a bit misleading for many English speakers. The Tao Te Ching, like Eastern thought generally, does not postulate 'good and evil' to mean anything like 'righteousness and sin.' It means the good things and bad ('evil') things that come to you in life.
Another philosopher, Chuang Tsu, illustrated this with a famous story:
A farmer lives alone, with only his teenaged son and a horse for company. One day the horse jumps over the fence and escapes.
The farmer's neighbors say 'Oh, what a terrible thing has happened!'
The farmer says 'Who knows if it is a terrible thing? We will see.'
A month later the horse jumps back over the fence--with six other horses it picked up in its travels.
The farmer's neighbors say 'Oh, what a good thing has happened!'
The farmer says 'Who knows if it is a good thing? We will see.'
A month later the farmer's son is riding one of the new horses. The horse throws him. The son is injured in a way that paralyzes him from the waist down.
The farmer's neighbors say 'Oh, what a terrible thing has happened!'
The farmer says 'Who knows if it is a terrible thing? We will see.'
A month later a war starts. All the physically able young men in the region are drafted into the army. The war goes badly and all of them are killed.
Only the farmer's son, because of his disqualifying injury, survives.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Corrected typo.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by ikabod, posted 08-28-2006 3:26 AM ikabod has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 51 of 300 (344221)
08-28-2006 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Archer Opteryx
08-28-2006 2:24 AM


Re: Question to Evc
I think I love Archer...
Let me say this is a pretty cool thread and people from all walks have provided interesting material. I will not provide direct answers here as I feel my responses will be more clunky than anything written so far, and I like what I see by others anyway.
My "position" would be a hybrid between Archer's and Ben's answers. Both of whom I find I admire. I may be wrong but it seems we are all a bit influenced by Taoism. Archer's beautiful and clear prose has so far (across threads) been greatly inspiring to me.

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-28-2006 2:24 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 52 of 300 (344232)
08-28-2006 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
08-26-2006 8:42 PM


The true freedom that you desire, can not exist on this planet. We are slaves to the planet. Take away all the political BS, and everyone that exists around you, and you think you are free?
You would have to grow, and hunt your own food, and struggle to survive. You would be a slave to sickness and desease that would otherwise be easily curable. You would not be able to experience love.
The kind of freedom you are thinking of could only exist by yourself, or in heaven, yet you desire this freedom co-existing with other people. Our current nation is the by-product of freedom. The fact that we can walk into a supermarket and buy just about any kind of food we want, instead of laboring to grow our own, is a freedom expressed through society. Think of all the benifits that we get to enjoy because of our freedom. But we must work to attain them. All the things you think are your freedoms being taken away from you are actually the bu-products of those very freedoms, compounded by living with others on this earth.
True freedom can only exist in your mind, and is very subjective. Jesus said, once you know the truth, then the truth will set you free. What did He mean by that? Maybe your answer exist in His words.
True freedom would also mean that there would be no economic systems, because there would be no need for money, no need for primitive currencies to buy and sell, all of which limits the freedoms of the people, forced to use the system constructed or be a hopeless starving wanderer.
Russia thought what they were doing was exactly this. It's funny because I just did a job for a guy who came from Russia 12 years ago, and he was describing what it was like to live there. He said there was very little, if none at all, classifications of people, and that if you were "poor, or rich" you both went to the same school. Everything is taken care of for you. There are no starving people. But then there is the black market, a product of free thinking.
We examined the propaganda here in the USA, and how things are packaged for us, then presented to us through the media. We are brain washed so that all a politician has to do is push the right buttons to get us to respond. The cartoons my kids watch are completely stupid, and full of ideas, and moral teachings that I do not wish to have them learn. I am sure Bugs Bunny was a pre curser to all this, as innocent as Bugs Bunny seems to me. It's ok for my kids to play with ug-gi-oh cards and summon demons, yet it's not ok for them to worship God. We celebrate Santa-Claus, not Jesus on Christmas. All this is not an absolute, but just an observation of how things are. There is truth in it. There is truth in what you notice, about freedom.
This thread started with "true freedom", but I feel that true freedom only exists outside what we see in the physical world, and is only present within our minds. Freedom is in transcending what is real, as did Siddhartha, and Christ. The only valid purpose that one can speak of, a purpose with any meaning at all is a purpose that Christ spoke of, to love the rest of your kind in this absurd existance. Because there is nothing else that is good and righteous to live for. Let us seek this freedom called truth, for nothing in this existance can ever be meaningful except for knowing why. Knowing why we are here, and why we exist. That's true freedom.
So I guess we agree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 08-26-2006 8:42 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by kuresu, posted 08-28-2006 12:45 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 68 by joshua221, posted 08-28-2006 5:41 PM riVeRraT has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 53 of 300 (344237)
08-28-2006 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by joshua221
08-27-2006 11:33 PM


Re: Question to Evc
I can tell you human history in a few sentences.
Who said anything about Human History. I am speaking of history of a human.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by joshua221, posted 08-27-2006 11:33 PM joshua221 has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 54 of 300 (344267)
08-28-2006 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by joshua221
08-27-2006 10:58 PM


Re: Question to Evc
Why were we created by God?
So he could love us and we could love him, I suspect (although the true answer probably has more facets to it than this). Similar, although not the same as, us having children (in the 'noblest' sense). Children happen when love happens. They are a product of love.
The question is the most important question ever asked. The most complex question ever asked.
I disagree. I think the most important question ever asked is "Does God exist?"
It is an incredibly complex question (were it to remain couched in that way). A long history of failing to arrive at definitive, objective (to all) conclusions demonstrates I think, the impossibility that man ever shall shall arrive at such an answer in the future. We have had opportunity enough.
Now if it were couched differently then a man might well get somewhere. A good way to reframe the question (for it also re-frames the approach) would be:
"God - do you exist?"
Edited by iano, : add 'not' above
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by joshua221, posted 08-27-2006 10:58 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by kuresu, posted 08-28-2006 12:46 PM iano has replied
 Message 69 by joshua221, posted 08-28-2006 5:49 PM iano has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 55 of 300 (344281)
08-28-2006 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by riVeRraT
08-28-2006 8:59 AM


The true freedom that you desire, can not exist on this planet
As I stated earlier in this thread, that idea is very platonic.
The idea of the ideal and then, this imperfect world.
very influential in christian (and judaism and islam) philosophy.
however, the ideal is not subjective. It is the perfect form that we all will know. Or at least, I do not think it's subjective. Reason being, the idea of subjective and objective was created after Plato--by aristotle, and I do believe that the two argued over whether ob/sub was real. As we can see, Aristotle won out.
Interesting how western philosophy is mixed between those two figures more than any other person in recorded history.
yes--western ideas are based more off of these two than even jesus. after all, he had to pull this line from somewhere
once you know the truth, then the truth will set you free
to me, that sounds an awful like Plato's cave analogy.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by riVeRraT, posted 08-28-2006 8:59 AM riVeRraT has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 56 of 300 (344282)
08-28-2006 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by iano
08-28-2006 11:59 AM


Re: Question to Evc
God - do you exist?"
you know, I asked him that once. I still haven't gotten a reply. Maybe he's too busy answering your all's prayers?

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by iano, posted 08-28-2006 11:59 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by iano, posted 08-28-2006 12:57 PM kuresu has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 300 (344284)
08-28-2006 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
08-27-2006 12:52 AM


You mean like an innate talent that you never got to develop because of the turns of life, but then finally get to practice?
That's what I was thinking of, yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 08-27-2006 12:52 AM Faith has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 58 of 300 (344286)
08-28-2006 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by kuresu
08-28-2006 12:46 PM


Re: Question to Evc
you know, I asked him that once
I take it you pursued (or will pursue) your wife/husband/job/hobbies et al with a little more gusto than that. Like I said, posing it that way reframes the approach. Make love to the question so posed - don't go for a quickie against the parking lot wall.
A chap from industry came into give us 3rd year engineering students a lecture on life in the real world. He asked us to think for a minute and come up with a novel type of lawnmower.
One chap down the back piped up after 10 seconds or so "gentically modify grass to grow at normal rates in the beginning, then get it to slow right down for the rest of the time. Get rid of the need for a novel lawnmower"
The industrialist pondered this for a moment and responded: "I would like you, Sir, to join my company whenever you have finished your education"
Think laterally
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by kuresu, posted 08-28-2006 12:46 PM kuresu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by ringo, posted 08-28-2006 2:44 PM iano has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 59 of 300 (344328)
08-28-2006 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by iano
08-28-2006 12:57 PM


Re: Question to Evc
iano writes:
Think laterally
Doesn't hurt to be a Bible lateralist either.
(Ever read anything by Edward de Bono?)

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by iano, posted 08-28-2006 12:57 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by iano, posted 08-28-2006 3:37 PM ringo has replied
 Message 62 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-28-2006 3:54 PM ringo has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 60 of 300 (344337)
08-28-2006 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by ringo
08-28-2006 2:44 PM


Re: Question to Evc
Doesn't hurt to be a Bible lateralist either.
Certainly not. Far better than being a Bible Contortionist, Delusionalist, Illusionist...or even more Alice-in-Wonderlandingly; an a-la-carte Bible Liberalist. ("I'll have Mark to start, Matthew for main course (medium rare). I'll skip Luke and (cos he wasn't there). You can put John in a doggy bag - thanks. Oh! and regarding allergens - there's no Paul in any of this, is there?)
(Ever read anything by Edward de Bono?)
Never 'eard of 'em m8. Ever listened to U2's Bono?
Album "How to dismantle an atomic bomb"
Track: "Yahweh"
Take these shoes
Click clacking down some dead end street
Take these shoes
And make them fit
Take this shirt
Polyester white trash made in nowhere
Take this shirt
And make it clean, clean
Take this soul
Stranded in some skin and bones
Take this soul
And make it sing
Yahweh, Yahweh
Always pain before a child is born (et tu Bono, et tu?)
Yahweh, Yahweh
Still I'm waiting for the dawn
Take these hands
Teach them what to carry
Take these hands
Don't make a fist
Take this mouth
So quick to criticise (*blush*)
Take this mouth
Give it a kiss
Yahweh, Yahweh
Always pain before a child is born
Yahweh, Yahweh
Still I'm waiting for the dawn
Still waiting for the dawn, the sun is coming up
The sun is coming up on the ocean
This love is like a drop in the ocean (understatement: not usually Bono's strongpoint)
This love is like a drop in the ocean
Yahweh, Yahweh
Always pain before a child is born
Yahweh, tell me now
Why the dark before the dawn? (C'mon Bono - that's easy)
Take this city
A city should be shining on a hill
Take this city
If it be your will
What no man can own, no man can take
Take this heart
Take this heart
Take this heart
And make it break
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by ringo, posted 08-28-2006 2:44 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 08-28-2006 3:49 PM iano has replied
 Message 76 by nator, posted 08-28-2006 7:04 PM iano has not replied

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