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Author Topic:   Death before the 'Fall'?
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Message 226 of 230 (301080)
04-05-2006 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by dancer
04-05-2006 10:01 AM

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  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 225 by dancer, posted 04-05-2006 10:01 AM dancer has not yet responded

    Inactive Member

    Message 227 of 230 (335902)
    07-28-2006 1:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
    12-31-2005 12:43 AM

    Re: A few scripture references that are dif
    Jesus said to his apostles

    (Joh 6:70 DRB) (6:71) Jesus answered them: Have not I chosen you twelve? And one of you is a devil.
    The writers of the gospels say that Judas is the one spoken of as the devil. That is why the people of the world that it was Judas. HOWEVER, THOSE WRITERS WERE MEN (green note)

    However, look at the Words He spoke, concerning the power of HIS words.

    Joh 12:48 `He who is rejecting me, and not receiving my sayings, (blue note)
    hath one who is judging him, the word that I spake, that will judge him in the last day,
    (Joh 12:49 YLT) because I spake not from myself, but the Father who sent me, He did give me a command, what I may say, and what I may speak.

    My premise is that the Words of Jesus are the correct ones and not the words of men. This caused great error by those that started the church. They were told that Jesus fulfilled the law of God and even His own Words were not more important than those of the apostles were. So the words of the apostles are used more by teachers of God’s plan and are told to supersede the Words of God.

    (Jer 11:10 YLT) They have turned back to the iniquities of their first fathers, Who refused to hear My words, And they have gone after other gods to serve them, The house of Israel, and the house of Judah, Have made void My covenant, that I made with their fathers.(blue note)(purple note)

    Since the words spoken by Jesus are sure, we have to believe them. Why then are we hesitant to see the truth of this
    (Mat 16:23 ASV) But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art a stumbling-block unto me: for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.

    HE called Peter Satan. In another translation

    (Mat 16:23 YLT) and he having turned, said to Peter
    `Get thee behind me, adversary! Thou art a stumbling-block to me, for thou dost not mind the things of God, but the things of men.' (Green note)

    Both of these are correct, as Satan is translated Adversary or enemy. Nevertheless, he used the name SATAN. Note that the same word is used in this passage when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness
    (Mat 4:10 KJV+) Then5119 saith3004 Jesus2424 unto him, 846 Get thee hence, 5217 Satan: 4567 for1063 it is written, 1125 Thou shalt worship4352 the Lord2962 thy4675 God, 2316 and2532 him846 only3441 shalt thou serve.3000

    (Mat 16:23 KJV+) But1161 he3588 turned, 4762 and said2036 unto Peter, 4074 Get5217 thee behind3694 me, 3450 Satan: 4567 thou art1488 an offense4625 unto me:3450 for3754 thou savorest5426 not3756 the things3588 that be of God, 2316 but235 those3588 that be of men.444

    The numbers are of Strong’s concordance, numbering the original words in the Bible, SHOWING THAT HE USED THE VERY SAME WORD EACH TIME

    Blue note 1 (Note that he says that words that were not listened to leads them to an idol. Moreover, of all his words this is one that none listened to of the church, that is when he called Peter Satan)

    Purple note 1 (The old covenant was that of judgment, as opposed to that of false gods that offered a way out of it, Grace.)

    Green note 1 (The reference to men shows the origin of false words comes not from God but men.)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 12:43 AM Faith has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 228 by Nighttrain, posted 07-28-2006 3:53 AM whyjewask has not yet responded

    Member (Idle past 2688 days)
    Posts: 1512
    From: brisbane,australia
    Joined: 06-08-2004

    Message 228 of 230 (335912)
    07-28-2006 3:53 AM
    Reply to: Message 227 by whyjewask
    07-28-2006 1:56 AM

    Re: A few scripture references that are dif

    Jesus said to his apostles

    Can you prove that?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 227 by whyjewask, posted 07-28-2006 1:56 AM whyjewask has not yet responded

    Member (Idle past 2688 days)
    Posts: 1512
    From: brisbane,australia
    Joined: 06-08-2004

    Message 229 of 230 (335922)
    07-28-2006 4:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 218 by jaywill
    02-20-2006 5:23 PM

    Re: Death of Pre-Adamic Creatures who became Demons
    Jesus ever settle that suit with the owners of the Gadarene swine?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 218 by jaywill, posted 02-20-2006 5:23 PM jaywill has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 230 by ReformedRob, posted 08-28-2006 5:20 PM Nighttrain has not yet responded

    Member (Idle past 4416 days)
    Posts: 143
    From: Anthem AZ, USA
    Joined: 08-27-2006

    Message 230 of 230 (344376)
    08-28-2006 5:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 229 by Nighttrain
    07-28-2006 4:16 AM

    Re: Death of Pre-Adamic Creatures who became Demons
    The theology of the issue has been popularly explained as such. 1)"The wages of sin are death" and "there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood". The whole idea of Christs death is the the kinsmen redeemer had to pay the debt owed for sin for all mankind to God. It is a repugnant thing. In the Garden of Eden there was no death until Adam and Eve sinned ushering in death as God killed the animals to get their skin...the first shedding of blood to cover sin. The 'covering' of sin is temporal until the sacrifice of Christ which is eternal. So there was no death before sin, Adam and Eve sinned, temporary covering of sin by animals death, the first death. Plants have no blood so are not considered alive for this theological purpose. Also, it is a logical fallacy, an argument from silence to say that Adam did not know what death was. He did not have to experience it to know it and the supposition that he would have to presupposes and understanding of Adam's mind which was a perfect, pre-fall man's mind. We do not understand what the conditions were in the Garden of Eden and cannot extrapolate what Adam did an didnt understand except for the fact the God warned him means he must have understood what death was.

    "...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 229 by Nighttrain, posted 07-28-2006 4:16 AM Nighttrain has not yet responded

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