Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9077 total)
54 online now:
AZPaul3, nwr, Percy (Admin), ramoss (4 members, 50 visitors)
Newest Member: Contrarian
Post Volume: Total: 894,031 Year: 5,143/6,534 Month: 563/794 Week: 54/135 Day: 0/6 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   jar - On Christianity
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 307 (344421)
08-28-2006 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
08-28-2006 5:06 PM


Pop psychology
IMHO the other thing that must be emphasized is that the Second Commandment is a two parter. Before you can love others you must first love yourself.

What you are doing is trying to graft modern pop psychology onto the Bible. I don't there's anything in the Bible about how we need to learn to love ourselves. That sounds very unBiblical to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 08-28-2006 5:06 PM jar has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-28-2006 7:41 PM robinrohan has replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2869 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 47 of 307 (344432)
08-28-2006 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by robinrohan
08-28-2006 7:10 PM


Re: philadelphia
robinrohan:

I don't there's anything in the Bible about how we need to learn to love ourselves. That sounds very unBiblical to me.

We have the statement 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'

A certain amount of self-love is understood.

Without it, no one is loved at all.

Edited by Archer Opterix, : Concision.

Edited by Archer Opterix, : Restored original wording to match quote.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by robinrohan, posted 08-28-2006 7:10 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by robinrohan, posted 08-28-2006 7:44 PM Archer Opteryx has taken no action
 Message 49 by jar, posted 08-28-2006 7:54 PM Archer Opteryx has taken no action

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 307 (344433)
08-28-2006 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Archer Opteryx
08-28-2006 7:41 PM


Re: philadelphia
A certain amount of self-love is understood.

I know but it's spoken of in a different way. It's taken for granted that we love ourselves in the Bible. Jar is talking about the pop psychological concept popularized in the 60s and 70s. Very different.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-28-2006 7:41 PM Archer Opteryx has taken no action

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 49 of 307 (344437)
08-28-2006 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Archer Opteryx
08-28-2006 7:41 PM


Re: philadelphia
IMHO it is really an important point. The really hard part IMHO is that it requires you to really look at yourself honestly. It is none of the soft sentimental self-esteem bullshit that many folk try to sell, Rather it is an honest personal evaluation, that then leads to actual actions relating to what YOU do, then to what you do oustside.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-28-2006 7:41 PM Archer Opteryx has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by GDR, posted 08-28-2006 9:27 PM jar has replied
 Message 56 by robinrohan, posted 08-28-2006 11:07 PM jar has taken no action

GDR
Member (Idle past 224 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 50 of 307 (344474)
08-28-2006 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
08-28-2006 7:54 PM


Re: philadelphia
jar writes:

IMHO it is really an important point. The really hard part IMHO is that it requires you to really look at yourself honestly. It is none of the soft sentimental self-esteem bullshit that many folk try to sell, Rather it is an honest personal evaluation, that then leads to actual actions relating to what YOU do, then to what you do oustside.

IMHO I think that you're ascribing too literal a meaning to that text. Jesus was quoting the scripture from Leviticus when He made the statement about "loving your neighbour as yourself", when he was asked which is the greatest of the commandments, referring to the Jewish scripture. His answer was limited to what was written in the those scriptures.

The whole story of the NT is that we are to be imitators of Christ. Christ loved us enough that he died for us. We are actually called upon to love our neighbours more than ourselves. Eph 5: 1-2 says: "Be imitators of God, therefore as dearly beloved children 2; and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to Go."


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 08-28-2006 7:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 08-28-2006 9:30 PM GDR has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 51 of 307 (344476)
08-28-2006 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by GDR
08-28-2006 9:27 PM


Better here than philadelphia
Christ loved us enough that he died for us.

Yeah, some Christians believe that. It never made much sense to me though. I believe that he lived for us.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by GDR, posted 08-28-2006 9:27 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by GDR, posted 08-28-2006 9:52 PM jar has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 224 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 52 of 307 (344483)
08-28-2006 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
08-28-2006 9:30 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
I would agree that both are true, although I am with you in that I don't understand Him dying for us either, but I believe that it is part of his message so I take it on faith. I don't expect to understand everything.

Let's stick to Him living for us. His whole life was a life of service to others. He could have been a powerful figure in the church and lived a life style that would have been the envy of the vast majority of that society.

He didn't. He put others ahead of himself and lived a life of relative poverty in order to fulfill his mission to others. In other words he loved his neighbour more than himself, and we are called to do likewise. Again I think that when you look at Christ's quote from Leviticus you are taking too literal a reading of it. He is just quoting the Jewish scripture.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 08-28-2006 9:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 08-28-2006 9:56 PM GDR has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 53 of 307 (344485)
08-28-2006 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by GDR
08-28-2006 9:52 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Well, it may be slightly more than "just reading". He was asked what was most important wasn't he?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by GDR, posted 08-28-2006 9:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by GDR, posted 08-28-2006 10:07 PM jar has taken no action

GDR
Member (Idle past 224 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 54 of 307 (344489)
08-28-2006 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by jar
08-28-2006 9:56 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."

It was a response to a "teacher of the law" who was asking which was the most important of the laws as presented in Jewish scripture. Christ's teachings went beyond what was written in the OT.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 08-28-2006 9:56 PM jar has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-28-2006 10:56 PM GDR has replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2869 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 55 of 307 (344508)
08-28-2006 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by GDR
08-28-2006 10:07 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
GDR wrote.

It was a response to a "teacher of the law" who was asking which was the most important of the laws as presented in Jewish scripture. Christ's teachings went beyond what was written in the OT.

You're suggesting this summation was incomplete in some way. I don't see how. Everything in Christ's teachings expresses the same categories--loving God or loving others.

It's an excellent summation.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by GDR, posted 08-28-2006 10:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 1:15 AM Archer Opteryx has taken no action

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 307 (344516)
08-28-2006 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
08-28-2006 7:54 PM


Re: philadelphia
The really hard part IMHO is that it requires you to really look at yourself honestly. It is none of the soft sentimental self-esteem bullshit that many folk try to sell, Rather it is an honest personal evaluation, that then leads to actual actions relating to what YOU do, then to what you do oustside.

An eccentric definition of the word "love."

ABE: I want to know where in the Bible it says we have to learn to love ourselves.

Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 08-28-2006 7:54 PM jar has taken no action

GDR
Member (Idle past 224 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 57 of 307 (344589)
08-29-2006 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Archer Opteryx
08-28-2006 10:56 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Archer Opterix writes:

You're suggesting this summation was incomplete in some way. I don't see how. Everything in Christ's teachings expresses the same categories--loving God or loving others.

It's an excellent summation.

I agree that it is an excellent summation of OT law. Christ's life and teaching went beyond that. Christ's life gave us the example of living for others. It wasn't just a matter of balancing off his own needs with his ministry, but it was about a life of total service. We are called to love our neighbours more than we love ourselves. That is the message of the whole NT.

Frankly, IMHO that is one of the problems with literalism. If you take the statement of loving your neighbour as you love yourself literally you are only get a part of the message. When you take the Bible, Christ's life and human experience together it is obvious that a life of service that is born from a true love of others is a life full of joy. Those that spend their lives looking after number one find that in the end they are serving a god that can never be satisfied.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-28-2006 10:56 PM Archer Opteryx has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 8:42 AM GDR has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 58 of 307 (344645)
08-29-2006 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by GDR
08-29-2006 1:15 AM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Christ's life and teaching went beyond that. Christ's life gave us the example of living for others. It wasn't just a matter of balancing off his own needs with his ministry, but it was about a life of total service.

I don't quite see that or that his message is of total service. His message was about living life. He partied, threw fishfries, went to weddings, laughed and cried with his friends, played jokes on them and chided them at times.

Jesus did not make EVERY lame person walk, or all the blind to see or raise all the dead or cure every leper he passed. He lived life. He did not seek out the sick, the lame, the blind, the leper. He didn't open a clinic or hospital, nor a soup kitchen or church. He lived life. When an opportunity came along he took it.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 1:15 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 10:12 AM jar has taken no action
 Message 60 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 10:47 AM jar has taken no action
 Message 61 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 10:58 AM jar has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 224 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 59 of 307 (344670)
08-29-2006 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by jar
08-29-2006 8:42 AM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
jar writes:

I don't quite see that or that his message is of total service. His message was about living life. He partied, threw fishfries, went to weddings, laughed and cried with his friends, played jokes on them and chided them at times.

I life of service is a life of joy. Isn't it an act of service and love to bring acceptance and laughter to others at a party? The neighbour that you are to love can actually be the guy who lives next door, your best friend or even your spouse and the kids.

jar writes:

Jesus did not make EVERY lame person walk, or all the blind to see or raise all the dead or cure every leper he passed. He lived life. He did not seek out the sick, the lame, the blind, the leper.

And He still doesn't. However, His whole life was, (and is), focused on loving others, whether it was by what He did or by what He said. We are an eternal people. Sure it is wonderful to see a leper cured, or to have the blind see but in the final analysis those are cures in a temporal world. Isn't it far better to be spiritually cured in an eternal existence. In that way he brought the cure for every man, woman and child. It is up to us to take the medicine.

jar writes:

He didn't open a clinic or hospital, nor a soup kitchen or church. He lived life. When an opportunity came along he took it.

Absolutely. He lived life as he encountered it then. Paul writes that the greatest gift of the Spirit is love and we are called to use that gift when we encounter an opportunity in our time.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 8:42 AM jar has taken no action

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 307 (344690)
08-29-2006 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by jar
08-29-2006 8:42 AM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
His message was about living life. He partied, threw fishfries, went to weddings, laughed and cried with his friends, played jokes on them and chided them at times.

This characterization of the story and message of the Gospels is rather odd, to say the least.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 8:42 AM jar has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by CK, posted 08-29-2006 10:59 AM robinrohan has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022