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Author Topic:   True Freedom
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 91 of 300 (344504)
08-28-2006 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Trump won
08-28-2006 9:05 PM


Start acting free, damnit!
prophex wrote:
How can you take such enjoyment in meaningless tasks that were created for you to partake in by other humans, by humans who were thinking about money, and greed, and efficiency?
Please save yourself from it, you still can.
Defending the statement, messenjah wrote:
The statements are "rich" regardless.
Are the statements no less true?
Your criticism is pushing an enslaved ideology that I personally hold disdain for.
You were born free. Start acting like it, damnit.
If I start acting the way you want me to, messenjah, I won't be free. I'll be acting the way you want me to act.
You talk about freedom, but you really want people to think the things you say to think and do the things you say to do. You are angry when they disobey orders. You are intolerant of dissent. You would persecute them if you had the power.
So I'll just have to stay free, making my own decisions, loving the people I love and following my own star, and let the flea-market Ferlinghettis say what they will.
You don't control the universe. You are not going to. It is vast, implacable, and (as you are learning) utterly indifferent to your opinions. Fight it, and it will beat you every time.
The only chance you have is to bargain with it. Come to some compromise.
And don't think I don't know how much that annoys you.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Spelling.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Trump won, posted 08-28-2006 9:05 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 300 (344526)
08-28-2006 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
08-26-2006 8:42 PM


Half-baked ideas
I have not experienced true freedom once, in my life. I have been under something that seems free, that people tell me is free, that schools teach is free, that media forces onto me as free. Should I have to settle for such freedom? For the seemingly free? For "the best that there is yet", for systems that are designed to keep me thinking that I am truly free? For propaganda, and wars all centered on essentially maintaining our "free" system, the "free" way of things. If I was to be truly free, things would be different.
Your post seemed a bit emo/anti-establishment and there was alot of unrealistic hope, the kind of misdirected hope that one has when he's now in college and feels as though the entire world is a giant facade and that he's unique in that he's just the kind of genius that can bring us out of our drab existence. Your proposals called for the eradication of any and all moorings that keep people free from tyranny. You've basically expressed the propagation of an anarchistic society that can never work because it requires all people to follow your particular brand of hippy justice. The world just doesn't operate like that. It seems to me that you want to live with total impunity, not that you lament for your fellow man who is free, but not really.
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typos

“It is in vain, O' man, that you seek within yourselves the cure for all your miseries. All your insight has led you to the knowledge that it is not in yourselves that you will discover the true and the good.” -Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 08-26-2006 8:42 PM joshua221 has not replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 300 (344658)
08-29-2006 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by nator
08-28-2006 10:20 PM


Re: Question to Evc
quote:
Gosh, what's it like being so incredibly brilliant?
I'll bet everybody there doesn't mind you looking down on them, including your professors, cuz they can see how obviously above all of them you are.
They just love to bask in your presence, I'll bet.
My philosophy teacher made a list of philosophical questions on the board. These "life" questions included who to vote for in an election, and which products to buy. They weren't about anything important.
Although my post may have seemed egotistical, I was trying really to show everyone that I see similar situations arising in my own life, and that I understand what I see in them.
quote:
If you don't have the balls to live by your own advice to everyone else, then that makes your philosophy pretty empty, doesn't it?
You hate capitalism, and life within it is so awful for you, but heaven forbid you give up your cushy existence that is paid for with the support of those in the system.
Like, you're just a big ol' hypocrite, aren't you?
And, tell me, what do you want to go to California for, anyway? To make it big in the music industry?
No, that's not a disgusting uber-capitalist business out there in LA, no, not at all.
Well, I didn't need someone to point out for me how my existance has been without true purpose, and I would never deny it or ignore it, if it was pointed out. And I am "learning". An environment where ideas are discussed. I haven't been brought into meaningless work, and jobs designed for profit.
I don't understand how you're "cushy existance" within the system has never frustrated you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by nator, posted 08-28-2006 10:20 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by ikabod, posted 08-29-2006 9:55 AM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 95 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 10:21 AM joshua221 has replied
 Message 96 by nator, posted 08-29-2006 10:28 AM joshua221 has replied
 Message 121 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-30-2006 1:05 AM joshua221 has not replied

ikabod
Member (Idle past 4492 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 94 of 300 (344663)
08-29-2006 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by joshua221
08-29-2006 9:37 AM


Re: Question to Evc
My philosophy teacher made a list of philosophical questions on the board. These "life" questions included who to vote for in an election, and which products to buy. They weren't about anything important.
so how do you plan to change a system you hate with out using the two main weapons you have ... the right to vote and consumer demand ...
well i guess you are lucky that you have the freedom to complain about the system without the responsibility of improving it . . . .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by joshua221, posted 08-29-2006 9:37 AM joshua221 has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 300 (344673)
08-29-2006 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by joshua221
08-29-2006 9:37 AM


Re: Question to Evc
Well, I didn't need someone to point out for me how my existance has been without true purpose, and I would never deny it or ignore it, if it was pointed out. And I am "learning". An environment where ideas are discussed. I haven't been brought into meaningless work, and jobs designed for profit.
I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about. What is "true Purpose?"
Over the years I have had quite a few jobs. Many have been exciting and challenging, loads of fun and a chance to really stretch out and do new things, others were less pleasant, some down right horrid, but still I learned something in every one and made friends as well along the way.
Is purpose something you strive towards, or is it the summation as you look backwards?
For awhile I was an optician. I made and fitted eyeglasses for folk. At the time it was a messy, nasty job where you burned your fingers daily, cut yourself several times a day, required exacting methodology and also art. I thought the "True Purpose" was those moments when you fitted a pair of glasses and had the person turn around and look out the window and you got a response like "Leaves! The tree has leaves!"
Then one day, there was a loud crash back in the lab. One of the owners had a heart attack. I rushed to the back and he was on the floor, not breathing, no sign of pulse. I immediately started giving mouth to mouth and trying to get the heart started. I yelled to the others that were standing about to call an ambulance, showed one how to do the compression while I continued doing the mouth to mouth. As a team, we had him breathing on his own and heart pumping by the time the ambulance arrived. He was conscious, eyes open and knew who he was.
So maybe that was the "True Purpose?"
One other thing to consider though. On the way to the hospital he had another massive heart attack and was DOA.
So, now, can we look back and see what the "True Purpose" was?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by joshua221, posted 08-29-2006 9:37 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Phat, posted 08-29-2006 10:33 AM jar has not replied
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 96 of 300 (344675)
08-29-2006 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by joshua221
08-29-2006 9:37 AM


Re: Question to Evc
quote:
My philosophy teacher made a list of philosophical questions on the board. These "life" questions included who to vote for in an election, and which products to buy. They weren't about anything important.
...or, you aren't smart enough or haven't learned enough to understand why they are important.
quote:
Although my post may have seemed egotistical, I was trying really to show everyone that I see similar situations arising in my own life, and that I understand what I see in them.
The thing is, you don't know anything about any of us, let alone understand. Certainly you don't know or understand enough about us to lecture us about how we should think and live.
Hell, you barely know anything more than your own very limited life experience.
It's really just so funny how perfectly you fit the stereotype of someone your age. Kids who think and act like you are a dime a dozen.
quote:
Well, I didn't need someone to point out for me how my existance has been without true purpose, and I would never deny it or ignore it, if it was pointed out.
Define "true purpose".
quote:
And I am "learning". An environment where ideas are discussed.
But how much can you really be learning if everyone around you, including your professors, is clearly so far beneath you in intelligence?
quote:
I haven't been brought into meaningless work, and jobs designed for profit.
So in other words you're a spoiled kid who's never had to earn his own way.
quote:
I don't understand how you're "cushy existance" within the system has never frustrated you.
Of course, you have no idea if it has ever frustrated me or not, because you've never asked.
All you have ever done is preach and lecture.
And why do you want to go to California with your guitar? To enter the music business?
And you never addressed the main point of my message:
You hate capitalism, and life within it is so awful for you, but heaven forbid you give up your cushy existence that is paid for with the support of those in the system.
Talk is cheap, kiddo. It's all just mental masturbation if you aren't willing to live the life philosophy you lecture everyone else about.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by joshua221, posted 08-29-2006 9:37 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by CK, posted 08-29-2006 10:38 AM nator has not replied
 Message 169 by joshua221, posted 08-31-2006 5:20 PM nator has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 97 of 300 (344677)
08-29-2006 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
08-29-2006 10:21 AM


True Purpose.
As an optician, you did your best. You made glasses and put food on the table for you and yours. You attempted to save a mans life in the course of your workday. I'm not sure if I could do that---I don't know CPR.
I believe that Charlie has a case of waunderlust. He wants to get out and just be himself...sow his wild oats while attempting to remain true to his beliefs. If his musical prowess continues to improve, he may one day join a band with similar beliefs as his own in regards to escape from the world of jobs and responsibilities that inevitably await most people out of High School and college.
They may make some money at it, and they may not---but they will learn a lot about themselves and their values as they express them to the people who frequent the venues where they will sing.
I see Charlie (and Chris also) as an artistic soul that wants so much to express (themselves) to a world full of people.
It still boils down to your philosophy, jar. They need to do their best at whatever it is that they choose to pursue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 10:21 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by nator, posted 08-29-2006 10:42 AM Phat has replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 98 of 300 (344679)
08-29-2006 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by nator
08-29-2006 10:28 AM


Re: Question to Evc
quote:
It's really just so funny how perfectly you fit the stereotype of someone your age. Kids who think and act like you are a dime a dozen.
That's about the size of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by nator, posted 08-29-2006 10:28 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 99 of 300 (344688)
08-29-2006 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Phat
08-29-2006 10:33 AM


Re: True Purpose.
quote:
I believe that Charlie has a case of waunderlust. He wants to get out and just be himself...sow his wild oats while attempting to remain true to his beliefs. If his musical prowess continues to improve, he may one day join a band with similar beliefs as his own in regards to escape from the world of jobs and responsibilities that inevitably await most people out of High School and college.
They may make some money at it, and they may not---but they will learn a lot about themselves and their values as they express them to the people who frequent the venues where they will sing.
But that's still a job, and one that still requires responsibility.
Since at least one of them has never even had a job, I'm not sure what world of "jobs and responsibility" they are escaping.
"Avoiding having to work for a living", aka "aspiring to being lazy slackers" while attempting to justify it with a lot of amateur philosophical folderol is what I see going on here.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Phat, posted 08-29-2006 10:33 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 08-29-2006 11:14 AM nator has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 100 of 300 (344701)
08-29-2006 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by nator
08-29-2006 10:42 AM


Re: True Purpose.
Schraff writes:
Since at least one of them has never even had a job, I'm not sure what world of "jobs and responsibility" they are escaping.
Phat writes:
Im guessing---just guessing here, since I dont know Charlie that well---that he has had conversations with adults whom he knows--perhaps his dad---and that they have encouraged him to go to school and don't end up trapped!
"Avoiding having to work for a living", aka "aspiring to being lazy slackers" while attempting to justify it with a lot of amateur philosophical folderol is what I see going on here.
Folderol?
Don't you love chatting with young idealists, Schraff? It recharges my optimism usually. I know, I know! Reality checks are in the mail!
Lets see if any responses are positive (optimistic) or negative (pessimistic) and we can go from there!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by nator, posted 08-29-2006 10:42 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 101 of 300 (344725)
08-29-2006 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
08-26-2006 8:42 PM


prophex
I have not experienced true freedom once, in my life. I have been under something that seems free, that people tell me is free, that schools teach is free, that media forces onto me as free. Should I have to settle for such freedom? For the seemingly free? For "the best that there is yet", for systems that are designed to keep me thinking that I am truly free? For propaganda, and wars all centered on essentially maintaining our "free" system, the "free" way of things. If I was to be truly free, things would be different.
Should you have to settle for such freedom? No. The world is full of places where you can go and be free of the restraints of society, but you propbably are not willing to pay the price of entry into that world. If you wish to do so you must be entirely self sufficient and ready to face the world without the support of the structure of society.
You would have to be capable of finding and maintaining shelter, feeding yourself through foraging and hunting.You would have to be able to make your own clothing, to mend broken bones, to withstand pain when you are ill, to take care of your own waste, etc....
The point being is that you are completely dependant upon the society around you. Do not be so hasty to rid yourself of it.
We wouldn't need leaders, leaders like Bismarck, Napolean, Bush, Hitler, and Charlemagne. We wouldn't need leaders and the games they play with our lives, like chess. I wouldn't be less than a pawn in this absurdity, far less than what a pawn would mean to the leader. A simple person, a simple student, someone without any influence globally on my own situation, and the situation of those that I know. To be free, the games that leaders conduct globally would have to be eradicated. Because until then, we would be stuck in the system, stuck at the bottom of it, into a hierarchy filled with others born into position, and unable to change it at all.
You seek to change the world into what? If you were in power and at the controls how would you guide a nation? How would you give people the means to support themselves and have choices by which they might enjoy their lives? Do you , for one minute,think that there is not a price to pay for the power of having the responsibilty of such position? Please explain how you would make the world a better place.
To be free, governments themselves would have to be stopped, we could not have groups of potential leaders, powerful people at the head of decision making for our own well-being. We would have to control it.
Who is we in this context son? If "we" controlled it would "we" not then become the government you so despise? You assume much of the ideal in your talk ,please explain how "we" would run the show. How would we decide on something like how best to distribute the world grain supply?
You wish to contol it but you give no understanding of how you would control it.
There would be no democratic voting, because voting is a less than fruitful experience, ending in a choice for the better of the 2, or 3, or 400, leaders and groups. The better of, is not the best, the best is when one controls his or her own destiny totally.
Ok. Please explain how you would feed yourself without the support of those around you. When winter hit New York what would you do without heat since you are determined to control your own destiny?
There would be no need for these out-dated systems. There would be no towns. There would be no cities. There would be no counties. There would be no countries. There would be only the earth, as it is.
There would be no borders to decide the strongest, or superior of systems. No borders to control where we go, what we see, or who we talk with. No borders to increase "Nationalism", which in turn means that there would be no feelings for the extension of power on a scale that effects millions in other places in the world.
No maps with areas carved into them to control everything that we are, and do, to classify all of humanity, limiting the freedom to be truly oneself and not to be called an American, a Frenchman, or a German
And once we have no borders and titles {which are artificial anyway} what makes you think that this changes the nature of the world and the practical problems of people and their impact on the world?
There would be no societies, used as platforms to endorse and promote the ideas of a few brilliant people and to subjugate others to the ideas of these few.
Freedom in this sense would entail the thinking of oneself, and to be seperate from the ideas of others if he or she wanted. But in societies which subcribe to governments, and economic systems, we are tied to these ideas, and are destined to be never truly free.
True freedom would also mean that there would be no economic systems, because there would be no need for money, no need for primitive currencies to buy and sell, all of which limits the freedoms of the people, forced to use the system constructed or be a hopeless starving wanderer.
There would be no occupations, no jobs, no pre-destined purposes, which never never never are what anybody ever thought for themselves to do with their lives. There would not be systems to give people things to do, to keep people from realizing the absurdity of this existance, to keep people trapped in their secure daily lives of money, and of family. To make sure that noone realizes that there is no meaningful purpose, no individuals must give up on the established way of things.
How would you feed yourself? On air? Who would do the work? Some other guy right? Who would supply the housing for you to live in? Who would build the shelters and supply the heat to survive for those cold New York winters eh?
Methinks you engage in absurdity you are not aware of friend.
Because once one knows that we are here in this abyss of existance and without clear purpose, one realizes that there are no purposes of any merit, or value. Because there is nothing that we can do that means anything because there are no standards. There is no guideline, there are no rules. All there is, is existing, and to wonder for what, and why, and to not know.
Then people begin to know that there is only one path that makes any sense. The path to transcendance, to true freedom.
And then one realizes that all of the existance that everyone else is in, that all the silly humans participate in, the existance of societies, and of governments, and of power, and of money, is the worst reality that could be realized. Because it seperates one from all of it. It makes recluses, people who can't socialize with others on mindless levels of small talk about sports, and business. It makes people commit suicide, and it makes truly intelligent individuals.
What the hell do you mean by "transendance"? Are we talking along the lines of Heaven's Gate or what?
You seem to think that the life you are living is not to your liking and that the world owes you something. Here's a game plan. Take your sorry ass to a war zone and I am sure you will find many who are willing to help you "transcend" the world you so depise yet whose tit you still suck on.
When you no longer walk on the backs of working men that support your right to the freedom you despise get back to me and then we might have a reasonable discussion.
It makes people want true freedom, but realize that it's not even worth it, because we will die in this existance, this place of mental torment, of no meaning. Where people take occupations to have false purpose rather than no purpose at all. Albert Camus' summation of life for many in the Sisyphus myth, where one finds purpose in meaningless tasks such as jobs, or occupations within an economy, that although Sisyphus pushes the rock up the hill for it to fall again, which is absurd (as are all jobs) he finds purpose in the task. This is as most humans behave, to find purpose in business, and in science, and in mathematics, in teaching, in anything, as meaningless as it all is, because these jobs do not matter, and they have no value. Many simply go through the system because they have not realized that their entire existance has been without meaning. Or they don't want to, and close their minds to ideas about the meaning of life, and the purpose of humanity's existance.
This thread started with "true freedom", but I feel that true freedom only exists outside what we see in the physical world, and is only present within our minds. Freedom is in transcending what is real, as did Siddhartha, and Christ.
The only valid purpose that one can speak of, a purpose with any meaning at all is a purpose that Christ spoke of, to love the rest of your kind in this absurd existance. Because there is nothing else that is good and righteous to live for.
Let us seek this freedom called truth, for nothing in this existance can ever be meaningful except for knowing why. Knowing why we are here, and why we exist. That's true freedom.
Please explain how the sceanrio you propose allows the hungry to be fed,the naked to be clothed, the cold to be warmed. You make the case for a world of complete freedom and love but you cannot help people in this life without the work of others, which is what jobs entail.
You find no purpose in life for which I pity you since you obviously are in turmoil.However, just because the world is meaningless, does not mean that you cannot have purpose and direction. It just means that you have to create it through hard work and sacrifice of your freedoms since this is what love entails.
I am always amazed at how many people think that purpose is seperate from living itself.

Dear Mrs Chown, Ignore your son's attempts to teach you physics. Physics isn't the most important thing. Love is.
Best wishes, Richard Feynman.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 08-26-2006 8:42 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by joshua221, posted 08-29-2006 2:45 PM sidelined has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 300 (344755)
08-29-2006 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
08-29-2006 10:21 AM


Re: Question to Evc
quote:
So, now, can we look back and see what the "True Purpose" was?
You helped someone heroically. You gave purpose to this absurdity. You did what Jesus would have done.
And in an environment of mediocrity, where the taken-advantage of, the satisfied, the vast majority, the decieved, the lied to, the slaves to the system reside.
I wanted to tell you all to leave that place, but it is safe, and simple.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 10:21 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 300 (344758)
08-29-2006 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by sidelined
08-29-2006 12:04 PM


Let your garden grow.
It's hard for someone who has been desensitized by the system to think outside of it, I am in an ideal position it seems to present my ideas, to all of whom have entered it already.
Although I am sure that I could design a well developed society without the horrible elements that exist within modern society, that was not at all the point of my first post.
Rousseau.
It sounds like someone has you tied down, and throughout the years he has convinced you that it is the best that way, you seem to love it in fact.
Sorry for the short reply but I felt that most of it was already addressed, and what you were saying was inside the box, physical world, bullshit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by sidelined, posted 08-29-2006 12:04 PM sidelined has replied

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 104 of 300 (344762)
08-29-2006 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by joshua221
08-29-2006 2:45 PM


funnily enough, you too are tied down. But by what?
By the teachings of the Buddha and Jesus. You are "trapped" by their system.
If you want to be truly free, then you need to make your own system. Define you very own philosophy--not on what others before you have said.
By this I mean: your philosophy is not different from that of the Buddha, and a little from that of Jesus.
Break free from these contraints. For they, too, are holding you down, holding you back. You cannot think outside of this "box" that you have made by imitation.
You want to beat the system, fine. Go join Neo.
you won't though, because you like your "system" that has you as equally "trapped" as the "system" that has me trapped. Of course, I'm going down a different road then you--that of the pragmatist. I too, am in college--just started. I too, play music. But, I realize that there is nothing I can really do to change the system we live in. why? people like the status quo. Personally--I want to go back to the past, back when quality mattered.
You bring nothing new, prophex. and what's the point of being a prophet if you only repeat what other's know?

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 105 of 300 (344763)
08-29-2006 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Phat
08-29-2006 11:14 AM


Re: True Purpose.
quote:
Don't you love chatting with young idealists, Schraff? It recharges my optimism usually.
I don't find the twins particularly optimistic.
I find them rather depressing, actually.
And dude, I've always been an idealist, albeit a fairly pragmatic one.
Oh, and "folderol"?
"mere nonsense; foolish talk or ideas."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 08-29-2006 11:14 AM Phat has not replied

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