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Author Topic:   How Likely Is It Jesus' Got Married
U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 3062 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 91 of 109 (344597)
08-29-2006 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Hyroglyphx
08-29-2006 12:00 AM


Re: Double Standards?
Exactly my point. While you're one that does not agree with it, have you made much of a fuss over it? (Not saying that you've made much of a fuss over Jesus' "married life", don't know that either)

Now with all the anti-semetic sentiment in the old days, and even now, in europe, do you think most people thought like you? They were all too happy to accept an image of Jesus that was more like them than the jews they hated, regardless of what the Bible said.

There is in fact a stronger argument in the Bible against Jesus' pale white skin, than there is against him being married.
To scoff at the latter and not the former is strongly hypocritical by most protestors against Jesus' alleged marriage.


"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine
This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-29-2006 12:00 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

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U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 3062 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 92 of 109 (344598)
08-29-2006 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
08-29-2006 2:43 AM


Re: Double Standards?
I accept what you're saying Phat, but lets be straight with ourselves here. you have as much proof of Jesus' bachelorhood, as others have of his marriage....nothing.

Its simply assertion on both sides.

The Bible was silent on this. Of course the possibility exists that the documentation of this (marriage or not) was destroyed, along with many other scriptures, in order to keep people in the dark over it.

Ironically, had these writings survived, they would have made the existence of Christ so much more believable.


"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 93 of 109 (344713)
08-29-2006 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
08-29-2006 2:43 AM


Re: Double Standards?
Phat writes:

Thats what Jesus is, though. An anomoly.

Every human being is unique. But setting Jesus apart from all of us makes Him somewhat redundant, doesn't it? If He wasn't like us, He might as well just be another run-of-the-mill demigod.

He is not representative of the human race, for the human race is imperfect and fallen.

Forget about that "fallen" nonsense. You know it doesn't wash with me.

Yes, we are all imperfect, and if Jesus wasn't imperfect too, He wasn't one of us. Why should we care about Him?

The church didnt just dream that up.

"Dream it up" is exactly what the church did. It isn't in the Bible.

What is in the Bible is that Jesus was tempted, like any other man is. He resisted temptation like any other man can.

You have to quit believing these liberal scholars at these Jesus seminars....

Just between you and me, I've never read a"liberal scholar" or been to a "Jesus seminar". Give me some credit for my own thoughts, please.

... without a clue as to the workings of the Holy Spirit. They are simply extrapolating their intellectual void.

You contradict yourself. Are they devoid of the Holy Spirit or of intellect? And, by extrapolation, of which am I void?


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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 94 of 109 (344716)
08-29-2006 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Nighttrain
08-26-2006 9:53 PM


Re: Where`s the gossip?
Close to a thousand manuscripts written by an obscure sect survived from roughly the same time period. Odd how the more numerous Christian body failed to deliver.

What are these obscure manuscripts you refer to that are in the thousands?

Too many missing periods in Jesus` life.

Because the details of His younger life aren't important to His message. He was asked by His mother to change water to wine, indicating that everyone was aware that there was something special about Jesus, but He went on to say that it was not yet His time to reveal Himself as the Moshiac. He had one purpose and that was to be the Moshiac. He revealed Himself at the time when Halacha states that its lawful for one to become a Rabbi. Everything Jesus did was according to the Law.

Nothing on the deaths of the giants, Peter and Paul.

The giants, I assume, you are speaking about Nephilim or the Annakim? There is mention of it in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Aside from that, it really doesn't mean much to our salvation. Its just an historical accounting. As for Peter and Paul's deaths, why should it surprise you that their deaths aren't recorded Biblically? It obviously means that their epistles were written by them and that their deaths occured after their writings took place. So, how is it that they could write of their own death? That's just asinine. As for speculation of their deaths, there are lots of different versions. Paul was reputedly assassinated in Rome and Peter was said to have been crucified upside down on a cross next to his wife.

Nothing on the subsequent proselytising and deaths of the apostles. Contradictions galore in the Gospels. Even the Jewish authorities thought it of so little moment, they couldn`t be bothered putting pen to papyrus. All those miracles and only the Christians noticed?

The Jewish authorities did write about it, and so did the Greeks, and so did the Romans, particularly on their martyrdom.

“Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the Sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called the Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned; but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done.” -Flavius Josephus

“Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod’s army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, called the Baptists: For Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God. And so to come to Baptism; for the washing would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away of some sins, but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly cleansed beforehand by righteousness.” -Flavius Josephus

“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day- the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account… You see, these misguided creatures’s start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them. And then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and to deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they quite take on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.” -Lucian

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians, by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had it’s origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontious Pilate. A most mischievous superstition, thus checked for a moment, broke out again not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular… And perishing they were additionally made into sports: they were killed by dogs by having the hides of beasts attached to them, or they were nailed to crosses or set aflame, and, when the daylight passed away, they were used as nighttime lamps… people began to pity these sufferers, because, they were consumed not for the public good but on account of the fierceness of one man.” -Tacitus


“It is in vain, O' man, that you seek within yourselves the cure for all your miseries. All your insight has led you to the knowledge that it is not in yourselves that you will discover the true and the good.” -Blaise Pascal
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 95 of 109 (344724)
08-29-2006 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Brian
08-28-2006 2:04 PM


Re: Jesus needed to have children
The 'offspring' referred to here is actual children, and not the metaphorical 'children' that Christians claim it means. Zerah, which is used for offsrping here, is never used metaphorically in the Hebrew Bible. So, Jesus would need to have had real children if He was the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 as Christians cliam he was. However, there are another two huge problems trying to fit Jesus into Isaiah 53. One is his fairly short life, it certainly wasn't a prolonged life as the servant was blessed with. Oh, it is an extended physical life as well, not some spiritual hocus pocus. The second, and biggest problem, is that Isaiah 53 is not even messianic.

For starters, Isaiah 53 is unmistakably messianic. Secondly, the "offspring" is true believers, not physical descendants. I'll break down the chapter verse by verse:

"Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently; He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high (by God)… Who has believed our report? (Who believes Christians?) And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? (Who amongst us has humbled himself, in order to understand who God is?) For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground. (Jesus grew up like a regular little boy). He has no form or comeliness; and when we see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him. (There was nothing in Jesus, that by sight, we might understand who He is). He is despised and rejected by men, a Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. (Jesus was rejected, smitten, scorned, beaten, and battered, because we did not care to listen to Him). Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His STRIPES, we are healed. (Jesus bore our sorrow and took it upon Himself and was crucified that we might live)! All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet He did not open His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep is silent before it’s shearers is silent, so He opened not His mouth. (Jesus before Pontious Pilate was silent as the charges were brought against Him). He was taken from prison and from judgment, and who will declare His generation? (Who among you will take up His Name, even at the risk of death?) For He was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgressions of My people He was stricken. And they made His grave with the wicked, but with the rich at His death, because He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth. (He was crucified like a criminal and yet, never committed one crime, either against God or against community.) Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. (For the remission of our sins, God has given His only begotten Son, in our stead.) When you make His soul as an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. (The Lord will compel Him to rise from the dead for His obedience, even unto to death.) By His knowledge, My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities. Therefore, I shall divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and HE BORE THE SIN OF MANY, and made intercession for the transgressors.” –Isaiah 52:12 and 53:13

Okay, so explain to me how that this not messianic and explain how if the Messiah is merely a man that he can do what only God can do, which is the remission of sin?


“It is in vain, O' man, that you seek within yourselves the cure for all your miseries. All your insight has led you to the knowledge that it is not in yourselves that you will discover the true and the good.” -Blaise Pascal
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 96 of 109 (344728)
08-29-2006 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by U can call me Cookie
08-29-2006 2:50 AM


Re: Double Standards?
Exactly my point. While you're one that does not agree with it, have you made much of a fuss over it? (Not saying that you've made much of a fuss over Jesus' "married life", don't know that either)

The only time I make a fuss over Jesus is when people attempt to impugn His divinity. Claiming that He was married and had children is to malign the gospels. Its as simple as that.

Now with all the anti-semetic sentiment in the old days, and even now, in europe, do you think most people thought like you? They were all too happy to accept an image of Jesus that was more like them than the jews they hated, regardless of what the Bible said.

I don't know what was in the hearts of people back then. I know there was and has always been anti-semitism. And I know is there is some artistic rendering of Asian Jesus, Black Jesus, White Jesus, etc, etc. I don't think its a matter of divinity. But as a matter of keeping the Sriptures accurate, Jesus most likely looked like your average 1st century Jew.

There is in fact a stronger argument in the Bible against Jesus' pale white skin, than there is against him being married. To scoff at the latter and not the former is strongly hypocritical by most protestors against Jesus' alleged marriage.

I would say that you're right as far as their being more evidence, scripturally, against Him being considered white than married. However, there is no evidence, whatsoever, to suggest that He was married. In fact, it has cosmic implications attached to it if He were. As for me scoffing at His non-married life means that I'm following the premise of the post, not showing partiality to one argument over the other. If the thread was on what race did Jesus fall under, I would engage in that debate too and back it up with the few Scriptures that allude to His race.


“It is in vain, O' man, that you seek within yourselves the cure for all your miseries. All your insight has led you to the knowledge that it is not in yourselves that you will discover the true and the good.” -Blaise Pascal
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 97 of 109 (344751)
08-29-2006 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Hyroglyphx
08-29-2006 12:15 PM


nemesis_juggernaut writes:

Claiming that He was married and had children is to malign the gospels.

On the contrary. Claiming that you "know" He wasn't married when you have no possible way of knowing - that is misusing and maligning the gospels.


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This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 98 of 109 (344778)
08-29-2006 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by ringo
08-29-2006 2:18 PM


Okay
On the contrary. Claiming that you "know" He wasn't married when you have no possible way of knowing - that is misusing and maligning the gospels.

Okay, to be fair, Jesus is married. He's the Bridegroom and believers are His bride. But if you want to think of Jesus as being married in the first century CE, then that's all you. Maybe He wore purple dresses with purple polka dots too.


“It is in vain, O' man, that you seek within yourselves the cure for all your miseries. All your insight has led you to the knowledge that it is not in yourselves that you will discover the true and the good.” -Blaise Pascal
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jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 99 of 109 (344780)
08-29-2006 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Hyroglyphx
08-29-2006 4:04 PM


Re: Okay
Maybe He wore purple dresses with purple polka dots too.

Very, very unlikely. That would have really gotten him in trouble big time.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3100
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 100 of 109 (344783)
08-29-2006 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Hyroglyphx
08-29-2006 11:59 AM


Re: Jesus needed to have children
Isaiah 53, if you read about it in context, is talking about the nation of Israel, not Jesus.

Let us look at some of the preceding lines to Isaiah 53. In these preceding lines

Chapter 41:8 But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me, 9 Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"

Chapter 44:1 And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen. 2 So said the Lord your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen. ... 21 Remember these, O Jacob; and Israel, for you are My servant; I formed you that you be a servant to Me, Israel, do not forget Me.

Chapter 45:4 For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you (i.e. Cyrus) by your name;

Chapter 48:20 Leave Babylon, flee from the Chaldeans; with a voice of singing declare, tell this, publicize it to the end of the earth; say, "The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob."

Chapter 49:3 And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."

So, in line and line after line, before Isaiah 53, the servant of isreal is repeatedly mentioned to be Israel. It just doesn't make sense for a writer to consistantly refer to the servant of Israel, change gears to try to make a prediction of someone 700 years in the future, and then try to shift back. That is all without discussing the translation problems the KJV version of the bible has with this passage.


This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 101 of 109 (344797)
08-29-2006 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by ramoss
08-29-2006 4:10 PM


Re: Jesus needed to have children
Isaiah 53, if you read about it in context, is talking about the nation of Israel, not Jesus.

Absolutely false. So, Israel can take away sins? That's news to me. Isaiah 53 is unequivocally messianic-- it is not speaking about Israel

From what I can see, you don't know how to read the Bible.

Chapter 41:8 But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me, 9 Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"

This is speaking about Israel as a nation and 'Jacob' represents the Jews, whom God chosen from Abraham (Abram) who was faithful from the beginning. You are on a completely different chapter.

So, in line and line after line, before Isaiah 53, the servant of isreal is repeatedly mentioned to be Israel. It just doesn't make sense for a writer to consistantly refer to the servant of Israel, change gears to try to make a prediction of someone 700 years in the future, and then try to shift back. That is all without discussing the translation problems the KJV version of the bible has with this passage.

The books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel are notoriously all over the place-- all of them prophets. There is not generally a sequential order to the scripture. Its the same with the Psalms. The psalms do not go in an order, yet, its replete with messianic imagery that have been agreed upon by Rabbinic scholarship long before there was ever such a thing as Christ or Christians.


“It is in vain, O' man, that you seek within yourselves the cure for all your miseries. All your insight has led you to the knowledge that it is not in yourselves that you will discover the true and the good.” -Blaise Pascal
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 102 of 109 (344798)
08-29-2006 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Hyroglyphx
08-29-2006 4:04 PM


Re: Okay
nemesis_juggernaut writes:

But if you want to think of Jesus as being married in the first century CE, then that's all you.

And if you want to think of Jesus as being unmarried in the first century CE, then that's all you, too.

It just seems to me that if He wasn't married, there's so very, very much that He couldn't possibly understand about being human. That would make Him rather irrelevant.

Edited by Ringo, : Spellinge.


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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2103 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 103 of 109 (345680)
09-01-2006 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Hyroglyphx
08-29-2006 11:45 AM


Re: Where`s the gossip?
What are these obscure manuscripts you refer to that are in the thousands?

Near to a thousand, I said. The Qumran Scrolls. Odd that a great scholar like yourself hasn`t heard of them? :-p

Because the details of His younger life aren't important to His message. He was asked by His mother to change water to wine, indicating that everyone was aware that there was something special about Jesus, but He went on to say that it was not yet His time to reveal Himself as the Moshiac. He had one purpose and that was to be the Moshiac. He revealed Himself at the time when Halacha states that its lawful for one to become a Rabbi. Everything Jesus did was according to the Law.

Jesus is regarded as having lived approximately 33 years. Apart from the infancy tales and three years preaching the message, we know next to nothing of the missing 30 years. No information of the teachers who taught him, no news of how he earned a crust, hell, we don`t even know whether his father deserted the family. He arrives full-blown, fully equipped for battle and his followers never asked a question?

The water/wine, like the seven signs, may be peshers for all we know. Oh, I forgot, you don`t know anything about the Scrolls.

The giants, I assume, you are speaking about Nephilim or the Annakim? There is mention of it in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Aside from that, it really doesn't mean much to our salvation. Its just an historical accounting. As for Peter and Paul's deaths, why should it surprise you that their deaths aren't recorded Biblically? It obviously means that their epistles were written by them and that their deaths occured after their writings took place. So, how is it that they could write of their own death? That's just asinine. As for speculation of their deaths, there are lots of different versions. Paul was reputedly assassinated in Rome and Peter was said to have been crucified upside down on a cross next to his wife.

Nothing to do with the Nephilim. The heads of the faith, Peter to the Jews, and Paul to the Gentiles were supposedly the ones anointed by Jesus to lead the missions. Their deaths don`t have to make Acts. Surely followers were literate enough to describe the ends of their leaders. Where are the histories? No one said they wrote of their own deaths. Even if Moses is claimed to have done it. Christians were writing of less outstanding events soon after, but nothing of the end of their leaders, except wild unsubstantiated rumours? Even James gets a small mention.

The Flavian references have long been recognised as Christian interpolations, not surfacing until the time of Eusebius, 300 years later. Y`know Eusebius, who said it was o.k. to lie for his church.

Lucian of Samosata (c.120-180) was not a contempory of Jesus or the early church.

Tacitus was not a contempory of Jesus or the early church. His Annals are dated c.115.

The only descriptions we have on that period are hearsay/secondhand by writers who never met the real Jesus, but related stories which contradict each other.

The oddest thing I find about Paul`s writings, apart from the denigration of the Jerusalem elders, is the failure to give a description of Jesus. I can understand new converts in Jerusalem not asking the question as they MAY have seen Him preaching, but Gentiles in all of Paul`s journeys never pop the question 'What did He look like?'


This message is a reply to:
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 Message 104 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-01-2006 1:30 PM Nighttrain has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 104 of 109 (345739)
09-01-2006 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Nighttrain
09-01-2006 9:24 AM


Re: Where`s the gossip?
Near to a thousand, I said. The Qumran Scrolls. Odd that a great scholar like yourself hasn`t heard of them?

Hmmm.... Well, lets see. The premise of the inquiry was that certain documents bring Jesus' single-life into question. The Dead Sea Scrolls has nothing to do with the NT, except to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the Tanakh was compiled long before New Testament writers walked the earth. The DSS only help to corroborate the account of Jesus as the Moshiac, not help to prove that He was ever married.

Jesus is regarded as having lived approximately 33 years. Apart from the infancy tales and three years preaching the message, we know next to nothing of the missing 30 years. No information of the teachers who taught him, no news of how he earned a crust, hell, we don`t even know whether his father deserted the family. He arrives full-blown, fully equipped for battle and his followers never asked a question?

Because its inconsequential. The entire point of Jesus was to pick up where Abraham left off when He almost sacrificed his own son. God stayed Abraham's hand and said that God would provide for Himself the perfect and acceptable sacrifice. The lamb caught in the thickets was a temporary covering for sins as were all animal sacrifices, but Jesus is the perfect propitiation of sin, the spotless Lamb of God. And because of His immolation, we who accept the offer, are free from wrath. Now, there is a bit of a problem here. David understood that Moshiac must come through his line, but at the same time, David knows that there is no one who is righteous, no, not even one. So who can carry this cup? Who can be both man and God? Jesus. Therefore, all this other stuff about the 'unaccounted for years' is inconsequential to His purpose. Would it be cool to find out about His younger days? Yes. But you have to understand that like the anti-christ, no one is going to know who that person is until he reveals his intent. Likewise, though I'm certain His own family knew there was something special about Jesus, no one knew that He was the Lamb of God, therefore, no one thought to make an accounting for His early life.

The water/wine, like the seven signs, may be peshers for all we know. Oh, I forgot, you don`t know anything about the Scrolls.

LOL! Show me where in the Dead Sea Scrolls that it speaks of Jesus' water to wine miracle. You are obviously very confused on what the Dead Sea Scrolls are. It sounds to me like you are speaking about the Gnostic texts, like the Nag Hammadi collection.

Nothing to do with the Nephilim. The heads of the faith, Peter to the Jews, and Paul to the Gentiles were supposedly the ones anointed by Jesus to lead the missions. Their deaths don`t have to make Acts. Surely followers were literate enough to describe the ends of their leaders. Where are the histories? No one said they wrote of their own deaths. Even if Moses is claimed to have done it. Christians were writing of less outstanding events soon after, but nothing of the end of their leaders, except wild unsubstantiated rumours? Even James gets a small mention.

I thought it was pretty common knowledege that Peter was reportedly crucified upside down and Paul was beheaded. These stories are of course challenged by the secular world, but surely you've heard of the stories. Its long been a Catholic postulate that they have historical documentation on these events. According to one of the larger Catholic website, NewAdvent words it in this way:

"Then Nero, having summoned Agrippa the propraetor, said to him: It is necessary that men introducing mischievous religious observances should die. Wherefore I order them to take iron clubs, and to be killed in the sea-fight. Agrippa the propraetor said: Most sacred emperor, what thou hast ordered is not fitting for these men,since Paul seems innocent beside Peter. Nero said: By what fate, then, shall they die? Agrippa answered and said: As seems to me, it is just that Paul's head should be cut off, and that Peter should be raised on a cross as the cause of the murder. Nero said: Thou hast most excellently judged.

Then both Peter and Paul were led away from the presence of Nero. And Paul was beheaded on the Ostesian road.

And Peter, having come to the cross, said: Since my Lord Jesus Christ, who came down from the heaven upon the earth, was raised upon the cross upright, and He has deigned to call to heaven me, who am of the earth, my cross ought to be fixed head downmost, so as to direct my feet towards heaven; for I am not worthy to be crucified like my Lord. Then, having reversed the cross, they nailed his feet up."

Aside from this, what manner of martyrdom is critical to the point?

The Flavian references have long been recognised as Christian interpolations, not surfacing until the time of Eusebius, 300 years later. Y`know Eusebius, who said it was o.k. to lie for his church.

LOL! The wroks of Flavius Josephus were Christian interpollations? That's new. I've heard the charge that anywhere Josephus mentioned Jesus that it was a Christian insertion, but now the entire works of Josephus was all a lie proagated by Eusebius. Please substantiate your claim.

Lucian of Samosata (c.120-180) was not a contempory of Jesus or the early church.

Is Thomas Jefferson a real figure in human history or fictious one? According to the latest possible placing of Lucian, 147 year difference separates Jesus and Lucian. But a 180 year disparity separates us from Thomas Jefferson, yet we know he existed. You seem to think that history only applies to those of us living now. Latly, my mention of Lucian was because he mentioned how Christians worship Christ.

Tacitus was not a contempory of Jesus or the early church. His Annals are dated c.115.

Same thing. That's 72 years of elapsed time. Are you telling me that Tacitus couldn't have possibly known whether or not Christians were being executed in Gladiator games under the reign of Nero? That's what the quote speaks about.

The only descriptions we have on that period are hearsay/secondhand by writers who never met the real Jesus, but related stories which contradict each other.

Secondhand stories? The gospels are secodhand stories?

The oddest thing I find about Paul`s writings, apart from the denigration of the Jerusalem elders, is the failure to give a description of Jesus. I can understand new converts in Jerusalem not asking the question as they MAY have seen Him preaching, but Gentiles in all of Paul`s journeys never pop the question 'What did He look like?'

What are you talking about? Jewish leaders never asked what He looked like? Please explain what you mean here.


“"All science, even the divine science, is a sublime detective story. Only it is not set to detect why a man is dead; but the darker secret of why he is alive." —G. K. Chesterton
This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Nighttrain, posted 09-01-2006 9:24 AM Nighttrain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Nighttrain, posted 09-01-2006 8:42 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2103 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 105 of 109 (345840)
09-01-2006 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Hyroglyphx
09-01-2006 1:30 PM


Re: Where`s the gossip?
(sigh) I feel like I`m back in kindergarten class. One step at a time.The point of the discussion is the presence or absence of documents relating to the period contemporaneous with the life of Jesus. O.k.?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-01-2006 1:30 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-02-2006 10:46 AM Nighttrain has responded

    
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