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Author Topic:   jar - On Christianity
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 106 of 307 (344841)
08-29-2006 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by GDR
08-29-2006 6:22 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Frankly I don't know why there wasn't an easier way to do it, but when it is foretold in the OT and reconfirmed by Christ himself in the NT I'm inclined not to dismiss it as silly.
On the subject of it being foretold in the OT, so far I have never been able to see any of those either.
Personally I'm prepared to admit that God has a better understanding of what is necessary than I do and I'm prepared to take it on faith.
I don't have a problem with that. I have never suggested that anyone else believe what I believe. All I can do is lay out what I believe and why I believe it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 6:22 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 6:29 PM jar has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 107 of 307 (344843)
08-29-2006 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by jar
08-29-2006 6:27 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
jar writes:
On the subject of it being foretold in the OT, so far I have never been able to see any of those either.
How about Psalm 22 for one?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 6:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 6:33 PM GDR has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 108 of 307 (344847)
08-29-2006 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by GDR
08-29-2006 6:29 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Certainly not refering to Jesus.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 6:29 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 6:54 PM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 109 of 307 (344849)
08-29-2006 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by robinrohan
08-29-2006 6:12 PM


aside on dating the NT
Not only propitiating but BY HIS BLOOD, by His death, says Romans 3:25.
So these authors who lived around 60-100 AD, who grew up in the same culture that Jesus did, who perhaps knew people who knew Him, got him wrong, whereas you, living 2000 years later, in an extremely different culture, mindset, different language, different associations, etc., got him right.
Hate to interrupt here since you are doing a great job of calling jar on his made-up version of Christianity, and this is a great point about the gospel writers' greater ability to interpret their own culture, but I guess you buy the idea that it wasn't eyewitnesses, Jesus' actual disciples, who wrote the New Testament?
I'd simply point out that the disciples would certainly have lived long enough to be writing between 60 and 100 AD. John is said to have lived into his 90s. I don't know their ages but they may have been around Jesus' age, though Mark is said to have been quite a bit younger -- a teenager at the time of Jesus' teaching -- so he would only have been in his late 40s or so in the year 60.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : to add quote and correct Bible reference from Matthew to Romans.
Edited by AdminFaith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 6:12 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by robinrohan, posted 08-30-2006 8:14 AM Faith has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 110 of 307 (344853)
08-29-2006 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by jar
08-29-2006 6:33 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
jar writes:
Certainly not refering to Jesus.
Are you saying that Psalm 22 isn't referring to the crucifixion? If not that then what on earth is it talking about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 6:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 7:00 PM GDR has replied
 Message 112 by Faith, posted 08-29-2006 7:13 PM GDR has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 111 of 307 (344855)
08-29-2006 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by GDR
08-29-2006 6:54 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
It is a general lament, certainly not the crucifixion.
The only way that it can be tied in is by quotemining it and that is very likely what the authors of the New Testament did, pulled pieces out of it and incorporated them into their tale.
But if you read the whole thing it is definitely not talking about the crucifixion.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 6:54 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 7:41 PM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 112 of 307 (344857)
08-29-2006 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by GDR
08-29-2006 6:54 PM


psalm 22 and other OT Messianic prophecies
You have good instincts, GDR, definitely Holy Spirit led. I'd just suggest that the most amazing heart-stopping hair-raising and soul-restoring mysteries of the Bible don't begin until you take it as ALL true as written, and give up sorting it according to what fits your own intellectual capacity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 6:54 PM GDR has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 113 of 307 (344867)
08-29-2006 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by jar
08-29-2006 7:00 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
jar writes:
It is a general lament, certainly not the crucifixion.
The only way that it can be tied in is by quotemining it and that is very likely what the authors of the New Testament did, pulled pieces out of it and incorporated them into their tale.
But if you read the whole thing it is definitely not talking about the crucifixion.
Well in the first place IMHO it is obviously a metaphorical foretelling for the crucifixion. I don't see what else you could glean from it.
As far as suggesting that the NT authors quotemined it you have now discounted the whole Bible. As you know I'm not a literalist in the order that Faith is but when you start suggesting that the NT writers were busy making up a religion to suit themselves I'm afraid that there is a much greater gulf between us than I had ever imagined in any of our previous correspondence. With your understanding I can't imagine why you would believe that there is anything special about Christ at all.
If what you are saying is correct then it follows that there is no reason to assign validity to anything in scripture, either metaphorically or literally, and that truth is just as likely to be found by making up our own new age religion.
In saying this I do want to add that I know that you love God and are searching for the truth of what He is and what He wants from us. I just have a great deal of difficulty understanding how you can come to the position that you have in light of this quote.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 7:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 7:44 PM GDR has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 114 of 307 (344868)
08-29-2006 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by GDR
08-29-2006 7:41 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Okay, no problem.
I am happy to try to explain how I see it whenever you want.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 7:41 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 8:52 PM jar has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 115 of 307 (344889)
08-29-2006 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by jar
08-29-2006 7:44 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
jar writes:
I am happy to try to explain how I see it whenever you want.
Isn't that what this thread is about?
My problem is this. Your statement about quotemining indicates that the writers of the NT made up their theology to fit the circumstance. Now you and I would agree that the Bible is not meant to be read as a science text or a newspaper, but I believe that the Bible is truthful. For example as far as I'm concerned it doesn't really matter if there was a real snake that spoke or not. What matters is what he said and all of the implications that flow from that. However I contend that the statement from what I believe to be a metaphorical snake represents the truth that God wants us to hear.
Your statement implies that the writers of the Bible felt free to make up parts of the Bible in order to build a religion. I might point out that some of these texts were written by Christian martyrs. It is one thing to discern what is literal and what is metaphor but it is another entirely have to discern what is truthful and what is a lie.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 7:44 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 9:27 PM GDR has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 116 of 307 (344896)
08-29-2006 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by GDR
08-29-2006 8:52 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Your statement implies that the writers of the Bible felt free to make up parts of the Bible in order to build a religion. I might point out that some of these texts were written by Christian martyrs. It is one thing to discern what is literal and what is metaphor but it is another entirely have to discern what is truthful and what is a lie.
Well, I'm sorry but it was written to build a religion. It is a sales document.
It is not a matter of lying either. The authors of the New Testament we selling, and they did draw from things they were familar with and used that material. That includes all the earlier works. But if you read all of Psalm 22 it isn't speaking about Jesus or the crucifixion. All of Jesus bones weren't broken, and the Lord did not hear the cry for help. Jesus died that day.
Trying to make stuff like Psalm 22 shoehorn into being fortelling just plain diminishes the story in my opinion. Read Psalm 22 as it was meant, as a general lamentation, but don't pretend it is more than that. That is just not needed.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 8:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 9:42 PM jar has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 117 of 307 (344899)
08-29-2006 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by jar
08-29-2006 9:27 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
jar writes:
Well, I'm sorry but it was written to build a religion. It is a sales document.
Then why on earth do you believe any of it?
jar writes:
It is not a matter of lying either.
Of course it's lying. If you record something for others to read that you know isn't correct then it's lying. That's pretty straight forward. It is interesting how those like Peter and Paul were willing to die for this lie.
I am also inclined to believe that if Christianity was just the invention of some first century charlatans then it would have died out long ago. (Not Empirical truth but it is worth considering just the same.)
Let's just say that we don't agree about Psalm 22 rather than get off on a tangent.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 9:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 9:58 PM GDR has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 118 of 307 (344902)
08-29-2006 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by GDR
08-29-2006 9:42 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
I never said they were charlatans. I did say they were selling a product. Paul did it all the time. One great example is the story of the Unnamed God. Paul simply took a local custom and marketed it to make his point.
This isn't lying. It's likely that just as you see that parts of Psalm 22 can be pulled out and applied to the New Testament and so they did. But I look at the whole thing and see an equal number of parts that don't apply.
Then there was the 9 out of 10 Rabbis surveyed prefered Christianity campaign.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 9:42 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 10:10 PM jar has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 119 of 307 (344904)
08-29-2006 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by jar
08-29-2006 9:58 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
I have to admit jar that I'm somewhat amazed at your logic that it is just fine for someone to make up a religion. I find it even more amazing that after basically saying that they made it up as they went along, that you are an adherent of that faith.
Could you tell me what it is that you believe about the Holy Spirit. Does He intervene in our lives either spiritually or physically, was He involved at all in the formulating of the Bible and does He even exist.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 9:58 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 10:14 PM GDR has replied
 Message 123 by tudwell, posted 08-29-2006 11:02 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 124 by ringo, posted 08-29-2006 11:11 PM GDR has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 120 of 307 (344906)
08-29-2006 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by GDR
08-29-2006 10:10 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Could you tell me what it is that you believe about the Holy Spirit. Does He intervene in our lives either spiritually or physically, was He involved at all in the formulating of the Bible and does He even exist.
I believe the Holy Spirit exists, I do think he intervenes in our lives, I don't think he selected the words of the Bible but most likely motivated the authors.
AbE:
One more thing that maybe I have never mentioned.
Christianity is the Map, not the Territory.
Edited by jar, : add map

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 10:10 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 10:44 PM jar has replied

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