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| Author | Topic: jar - On Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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GDR Member  Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: Well the cross and even the crucifixion isn't that unusual. Remember, as I pointed out before, there were atleast two others crucified the same day, time and place as Jesus and likely hundreds or thousands that same day throughout the Roman Empire. I think that we can safely assume that of all those that were crucified there was only one (Jesus) who could have avoided it. As either Man or God Jesus could have avoided that horrible death. He prayed to the Father that He might be able to avoid it. God (Father and Son) believed that what you contend is silly was absolutely necessary. Frankly I don't know why there wasn't an easier way to do it, but when it is foretold in the OT and reconfirmed by Christ himself in the NT I'm inclined not to dismiss it as silly. Personally I'm prepared to admit that God has a better understanding of what is necessary than I do and I'm prepared to take it on faith. Everybody is entitled to my opinion. 
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: It is a general lament, certainly not the crucifixion.The only way that it can be tied in is by quotemining it and that is very likely what the authors of the New Testament did, pulled pieces out of it and incorporated them into their tale. But if you read the whole thing it is definitely not talking about the crucifixion. Well in the first place IMHO it is obviously a metaphorical foretelling for the crucifixion. I don't see what else you could glean from it. As far as suggesting that the NT authors quotemined it you have now discounted the whole Bible. As you know I'm not a literalist in the order that Faith is but when you start suggesting that the NT writers were busy making up a religion to suit themselves I'm afraid that there is a much greater gulf between us than I had ever imagined in any of our previous correspondence. With your understanding I can't imagine why you would believe that there is anything special about Christ at all. If what you are saying is correct then it follows that there is no reason to assign validity to anything in scripture, either metaphorically or literally, and that truth is just as likely to be found by making up our own new age religion. In saying this I do want to add that I know that you love God and are searching for the truth of what He is and what He wants from us. I just have a great deal of difficulty understanding how you can come to the position that you have in light of this quote. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: I am happy to try to explain how I see it whenever you want. Isn't that what this thread is about? My problem is this. Your statement about quotemining indicates that the writers of the NT made up their theology to fit the circumstance. Now you and I would agree that the Bible is not meant to be read as a science text or a newspaper, but I believe that the Bible is truthful. For example as far as I'm concerned it doesn't really matter if there was a real snake that spoke or not. What matters is what he said and all of the implications that flow from that. However I contend that the statement from what I believe to be a metaphorical snake represents the truth that God wants us to hear. Your statement implies that the writers of the Bible felt free to make up parts of the Bible in order to build a religion. I might point out that some of these texts were written by Christian martyrs. It is one thing to discern what is literal and what is metaphor but it is another entirely have to discern what is truthful and what is a lie. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: Well, I'm sorry but it was written to build a religion. It is a sales document. Then why on earth do you believe any of it?
jar writes: It is not a matter of lying either. Of course it's lying. If you record something for others to read that you know isn't correct then it's lying. That's pretty straight forward. It is interesting how those like Peter and Paul were willing to die for this lie. I am also inclined to believe that if Christianity was just the invention of some first century charlatans then it would have died out long ago. (Not Empirical truth but it is worth considering just the same.) Let's just say that we don't agree about Psalm 22 rather than get off on a tangent. Edited by GDR, : No reason given. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
I have to admit jar that I'm somewhat amazed at your logic that it is just fine for someone to make up a religion. I find it even more amazing that after basically saying that they made it up as they went along, that you are an adherent of that faith.
Could you tell me what it is that you believe about the Holy Spirit. Does He intervene in our lives either spiritually or physically, was He involved at all in the formulating of the Bible and does He even exist. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: GOD is more than all of those and worshiping the Bible or even Christianity is mistaking the Map for the Territory IMHO. No problem with that. The Bible is not an object to be worshipped any more than the cross is but they do lead us to He who is to be worshipped. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
GDR writes: I'm somewhat amazed at your logic that it is just fine for someone to make up a religion.Ringo writes:
But everybody does make up their own religion. Some internalize a lot of Christianity. Some internalize a lot of Hinduism. Some internalize a lot of Islam. But what you have inside you is what you synthesize from all of your experiences. It's not some absolute, "true" religion. It's your own. Sure. Faith, jar and myself all call ourselves Christians but there are many things that we disagree on. Nobody has a lock on absolute truth. We are all however searching for as much of the truth as we can get. We use the Bible, we use the wisdom of others, we use the wisdom that God gave us and we can learn about God by observing and learning about his creation. That however is not the same thing as intentionally writing something that is intended to inform others about your faith that you know to be untruthful. It is one thing to err unintentionally, it is another to change the actual events in order to tell the story the way you want it told. Jar (I can capitalize jar at the beginning of a sentence can't I? ), can call it marketing if he wants to, but I still call it lying. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Here is your original statement
jar writes: The only way that it can be tied in is by quotemining it and that is very likely what the authors of the New Testament did, pulled pieces out of it and incorporated them into their tale. Your last post
jar writes: But I also have no doubt that the folk believed what they were doing, were sincere in what they were doing. I just think they were wrong. When they quotemined parts from the Old Testament and included them in the New, I don't think they were lying. I think they read Psalm 22 and said "Wow. This parallels our story!" In your first case the implication is that they just used the OT to try and make their made-up story believable. At least now you think that they were sincerely wrong. How do you discern when they are sincerely right? Here are some quotes from Psalm 22.
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning? Did Jesus really say this on the cross or were the Gospel writers just quotemining. Either He said it or he didn't. It's the truth or a lie.
7 All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads: 8 "He trusts in the LORD;let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him." Same thing again. It happened or it didn't. It's the truth or it's a lie.
[qs] 14 I am poured out like water,and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me [b] in the dust of death. 16 Dogs have surrounded me;a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced [c] my hands and my feet. [/qs] This was written years before the crucifixion. It sure sounds like a foretelling to me.
18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing. Again. It's the truth or a lie Edited by GDR, : No reason given. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Ringo writes: I have a problem with the way you use the word "untruthful". It is certainly possible to convey "truth" through fiction. That is not remotely similar to lying. I have no problem with the concept of metaphor at all. I'm not a literalist when it comes to reading the Bible. Right now though we are talking about the story of the crucifixion. Jar isn't saying that they were speaking metaphorically in the telling of the story but that they were quotemining the OT to make their story more believable.
Ringo writes: Jesus told lots of parables. He did change the "actual events" - or even made them up out of whole cloth - in order to tell the story the way He wanted it told. Does a story have to have "---> PARABLE <---" in flashing neon lights for you to recognize it as fiction? As I've already said I think that trying to take the whole Bible literally robs it of a great deal that the spiritual truths can actually convey. The Jewish people up until very modern times had a long history of teaching by metaphor and as you said so did Jesus. However, I have a great deal of difficulty seeing the story of the crucifixion as a metaphor. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Ringo writes: I didn't say anything about metaphors. I was talking about using fiction to convey "truth". A fictionalized telling of the crucifixion story doesn't diminish it's value in any way. Except that one doesn't use fiction without making it clear that it is fiction. If it is fiction masquerading as literal truth then it's untruthful
Ringo writes: Can we agree that the gospel writers may not (probably did not) witness the crucifixion in person? If they didn't, their accounts are second-hand already, only as "truthful" as the versions that they heard. Two of the Gospel writers were Apostles. (Matthew and John) John's Gospel strongly implies that he was there. No record of whether Matthew was there or not.
Ringo writes: Even if they were eyewitnesses, there would have been conversations that they didn't actually hear (the trial in front of the Sanhedrin comes to mind). Is it not permissible to "make up" some of the dialog to get one's point across? With the possible exception of Luke they would all have gotten the information either first or second hand. The dialogue is written in such a way that I am led to believe that it is a telling of how it actually happened.
Ringo writes: I think you put too much emphasis on the words and not enough on the message in the words. I hope I'm not guilty of that. The message of the cross is central to my faith. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Archer writes: Was Jesus' name Emmanuel?If you look into it, I think you'll find his name was Jesus. It either happened or it didn't. It's the truth or it's a lie. I don't get your point. Emmanuel simply means "God with us" Same thing as calling Jesus "Son of God". Edited by GDR, : It didn't post correctly for whatever reason Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Comparing books of fiction to the writing of the Bible is not the point in my view. Of course I read the Bible differently than I would Treasure Island.
Ringo writes: There's a good reason why second-hand testimony isn't acceptable in a court of law - it's unreliable. It wasn't all second hand and this isn't a court of law.
Ringo writes: And what about the dialog that they most likely didn't witness - e.g. the trial(s)? In all likelihood at least Matthew and John witnessed the trial. Also Mark collaborated with Peter who was at the trial. How do you read the Bible? Do you see any validity in any of it? Is it just a book of good moral teachings or is it not even that? Is there any divine inspiration anywhere in it? If so; how much? Is any of it to be taken literally? Is Jesus God incarnate, a prophet, a good man or did He even exist at all. How would YOU answer those questions? All of these questions come have to considered in reading the Bible. I see the creation story and other many other OT stories as being true metaphors but I read the story of the crucifiction as being a fair and accurate account. If there are inexactitudes in it then they are IMHO minor and unintentional. Is it scientific? No.
Ringo writes: Maybe the message of Jesus should be central to your faith. Fair enough. It is. However what Jesus did on the cross is a huge part of the message. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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