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Author Topic:   True Freedom
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 121 of 300 (344942)
08-30-2006 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by joshua221
08-29-2006 9:37 AM


Hello, McFly!
prophex writes:
My philosophy teacher made a list of philosophical questions on the board. These "life" questions included who to vote for in an election, and which products to buy. They weren't about anything important.
And you decided these things weren't important according to what philosophy?

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by joshua221, posted 08-29-2006 9:37 AM joshua221 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-30-2006 1:33 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

alacrity fitzhugh
Member (Idle past 4288 days)
Posts: 194
Joined: 02-10-2004


Message 122 of 300 (344944)
08-30-2006 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
08-26-2006 8:42 PM


prophex writes:
To be free, governments themselves would have to be stopped, we could not have groups of potential leaders, powerful people at the head of decision making for our own well-being. We would have to control it.
By decree of the almighty prophex.
We wouldn't need leaders, leaders like Bismarck, Napolean, Bush, Hitler, and Charlemagne
No, just you and your brother, right
There would be no democratic voting, because voting is a less than fruitful experience, ending in a choice for the better of the 2, or 3, or 400, leaders and groups. The better of, is not the best, the best is when one controls his or her own destiny totally.
For you two would be fearless leaders
There would be no need for these out-dated systems. There would be no towns. There would be no cities. There would be no counties. There would be no countries. There would be only the earth, as it is.
Okay fearless leader, where well 6.5 billion people live?'
True freedom would also mean that there would be no economic systems, because there would be no need for money, no need for primitive currencies to buy and sell, all of which limits the freedoms of the people, forced to use the system constructed or be a hopeless starving
So the masses are not hopelessly starving, how are you going to convince people to toil on the farm, then with no form of payment feed those who are enjoying your 'true freedom'? So that women do not suffer in chid birth, babies and children do not suffer from childhood diseases, so the infirm and handicapped are cared for, and so that all are taking care of when accidents happen how do you propose to insure the medical/dental health of your subject ( yes your subjects guess what this is your idea). How are you going to transport it anything needed to the masses, remimber you did away with the means.
Let me fix one of your statements for you
prophex writes:
leaders like Bismarck, Napolean, Bush, Hitler, and Charlemagne,prophex
Edited by alacrity fitzhugh, : No reason given.
Edited by alacrity fitzhugh, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 123 of 300 (344947)
08-30-2006 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Archer Opteryx
08-30-2006 1:05 AM


Re: Hello, McFly!
Thus spake prophex:
I can teach my teachers, my one philosophy class feels like sunday school, and I actually have to take my time and do homework for these people. [....] I want to learn from the philosophers themselves, instead of having some muddled down version from a depressing individual who sees the world as capitalism.
I'm going to read their works, that's all I really need.
You say you can teach philosophy better than your teacher. You say you can even teach the teacher.
And this, before you've even read the philosophers.
This is truly intellect of a rare order.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Concision.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-30-2006 1:05 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Trump won, posted 08-30-2006 1:16 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Thor
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 148
From: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 12-20-2004


Message 124 of 300 (344990)
08-30-2006 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by joshua221
08-29-2006 2:45 PM


...de-lurking for a moment.
A lot has been said in this thread by many, but there's one thought that keeps coming to my mind. I think you have things the wrong way around.
We all need to find our place in the world, not demand that the rest of the world around us change to put us in that place.

"Thank you Slartibartfast, that will be all."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by joshua221, posted 08-29-2006 2:45 PM joshua221 has not replied

JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2318 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 125 of 300 (344995)
08-30-2006 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by joshua221
08-27-2006 10:58 PM


Re: Question to Evc
Why were we created by God?
We weren't.

'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by joshua221, posted 08-27-2006 10:58 PM joshua221 has not replied

JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2318 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 126 of 300 (344999)
08-30-2006 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by joshua221
08-27-2006 10:47 PM


Re: Question to Evc
How do the individuals here who have jobs, and live as "normal" individuals cope with how meaningless most of it all is?
You're young. You're just beginning to ask questions about what life is about, after a childhood in which answers have been offered to you as absolutes.
That sense of meaninglessness is natural. You haven't yet realised that meaning doesn't come from outside - it's something personal to you. Things become meaningful as you chase them or avoid them - it's your desires and your repulsions, and the consequences of acting on them, that generate a sense of meaning in life.
How do you find meaning in what you do?
I try to do the things that I enjoy doing. At bottom that's the only true guarantee I've found.
And why do you think we are here?
To replicate (and to sneak a bit of enjoyment in the process )
As to your opening post about freedom, you seem to be asking for an absolute freedom to do as you wish. But what if your freedom interferes with my freedom? Or more importantly, from your point of view, what if I, exercising my freedom, decide that I need to reduce your freedom in order to achieve it? If I have the power, should I be able to do what I like?
The liberal notion of freedom that Jefferson, Locke and Mill championed seeks to minimise the interference that any one indivividual can impose on another. It accepts the need for laws (because laws are there, in the end, to stop us oppressing each other), but insists that, where an individual's actions don't impinge on the rights of another, then society has no right to impose any constraint.

'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by joshua221, posted 08-27-2006 10:47 PM joshua221 has not replied

JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2318 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 127 of 300 (345001)
08-30-2006 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by iano
08-29-2006 7:51 PM


Re: When you're young...
But it is as Paul Weller once wrote - when he was in the transition period between were you are and were we are now.
When I think of all the pretentious lyrics I use to analyse when I was young, it seems such a shame that I never listened to the Jam songs carefully enough. Paul Weller was such a clever lyricist ... ah, well, I suppose I can pay attention now.

'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by iano, posted 08-29-2006 7:51 PM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-30-2006 1:17 PM JavaMan has replied

JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2318 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 128 of 300 (345008)
08-30-2006 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
08-26-2006 8:42 PM


True freedom
This thread started with "true freedom", but I feel that true freedom only exists outside what we see in the physical world, and is only present within our minds. Freedom is in transcending what is real, as did Siddhartha, and Christ. The only valid purpose that one can speak of, a purpose with any meaning at all is a purpose that Christ spoke of, to love the rest of your kind in this absurd existance. Because there is nothing else that is good and righteous to live for. Let us seek this freedom called truth, for nothing in this existance can ever be meaningful except for knowing why. Knowing why we are here, and why we exist. That's true freedom.
I was under the impression that freedom meant I get to do what I want. Are you using the word in a different sense?

'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 08-26-2006 8:42 PM joshua221 has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 300 (345017)
08-30-2006 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by joshua221
08-27-2006 10:47 PM


Re: Question to Evc
And why do you think we are here?
Life has no purpose, no reason behind it, Prophex. We're just here, hanging about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by joshua221, posted 08-27-2006 10:47 PM joshua221 has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 130 of 300 (345028)
08-30-2006 11:36 AM


Boy this is a great thread.
All the old truisms are flood back like a massive tsunami.

Power to the people.
Never trust anyone over 30.
We shall overcome.
All war is deception.
Look ma, no Arms.
Make Love not War.
There is no way to peace, Peace IS the way.
Peace, Think about it.
Books, not bombs.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by nator, posted 08-30-2006 7:19 PM jar has not replied

Legend
Member (Idle past 5005 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 131 of 300 (345029)
08-30-2006 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
08-26-2006 8:42 PM


...to be young again!
Prophex,
You have too much time and not enough problems in your life.
When you start having to struggle to pay the bills, your wife's having an affair and you're waiting for the results of that scan to verify whether the tumour in your abdomen in benign or not, all this meta-physical wondering will become utterly insignificant.
You'll be striving to do the things you enjoy and avoid the things you hate.
Your life will be full of meaning, as simply as that.
Until then....

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 08-26-2006 8:42 PM joshua221 has not replied

Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 132 of 300 (345041)
08-30-2006 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Archer Opteryx
08-30-2006 1:33 AM


Dear less advantaged men and women of this board.
quote:
And this, before you've even read the philosophers.
You must hold the ability to read minds because you do not know him personally.
I will take a guess that his credentials are of higher standing than your own and if not then it is only because of his age. Time and opportunity alone. I will not judge your intellect from your posts here but I find the defense of conformity usually attributed to those that are easily manipulated.
This discrimination because of Prophex's age is bothersome but I must resign that noone here can say for sure that they follow Christ.
Jesus Christ said:
"Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
Maybe Charlie hasn't fallen into trivialities as men do...
Edited by -messenjah of one, : bible verse

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-30-2006 1:33 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 08-30-2006 1:26 PM Trump won has not replied
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 Message 173 by CK, posted 09-01-2006 4:39 AM Trump won has replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 133 of 300 (345042)
08-30-2006 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by JavaMan
08-30-2006 8:30 AM


Re: things get complicated
JavaMan:
When I think of all the pretentious lyrics I use to analyse when I was young, it seems such a shame that I never listened to the Jam songs carefully enough. Paul Weller was such a clever lyricist ... ah, well, I suppose I can pay attention now.
Mediocre bourgeois stuff. Ugh. You people disgust me.
For deep philosophy, go to The Statler Brothers.
Tommy's selling used cars, Nancy's fixing hair,
Harvey runs a grocery store and Margaret doesn't care.
Jerry drives a truck for Sears and Charlotte's on the make
And Paul sells life insurance and part-time real estate.
Helen is a hostess, Frank works at the mill,
Janet teaches grade school and likely always will.
Bob works for the city and Jack's in lab research
And Peggy plays the organ at the Presbyterian Church.
But the class of '57 had its dreams.
Yes, we all thought we'd change the world with our great works and deeds.
Or maybe we just thought the world would change to fit our needs
But the class of '57 had its dreams.
Betty runs a trailer park, Jan sells Tupperware,
Randy's in a mental ward and Mary's on welfare.
Charlie took a job with Ford, Joe took Freddie's wife,
Charlotte took a millionaire and Freddie took his life.
John is big in cattle, Ray is deep in debt;
Where Mavis finally wound up is anybody's bet.
Linda married Sonny, Brenda married me,
And the class of all of us is now a part of history.
But the class of '57 had its dreams.
It's just that living life from day to day proved harder than it seems.
Things get complicated when you get past eighteen
But the class of '57 had its dreams.
Yes, the class of '57 had its dreams.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by JavaMan, posted 08-30-2006 8:30 AM JavaMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by JavaMan, posted 08-31-2006 7:28 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 134 of 300 (345046)
08-30-2006 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by joshua221
08-27-2006 10:47 PM


Re: Question to Evc
prophex
How do the individuals here who have jobs, and live as "normal" individuals cope with how meaningless most of it all is?
Why do you suppose it is meaningless to sacrifice on behalf of others some of your time in order to support the society within which you live and from whose efforts you have the freedom to speak your mind.
Do you think the man who built your guitar is wasting his life away?
What of the men who bend their backs to produce the food you eat?
The men who construct the sewage systems and treat the water that you need to stay healthy?
You have some weird idea of meaningless methinks. Of course,in a couple of hundred years you and I will have been forgotten and life will continue as though we never had existed, yet this makes life more valuable ,not less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by joshua221, posted 08-27-2006 10:47 PM joshua221 has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 135 of 300 (345048)
08-30-2006 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Trump won
08-30-2006 1:16 PM


Re: Dear less advantaged men and women of this board.
-messenjah of one writes:
Maybe Charlie hasn't fallen into trivialities as men do...
"Trivialities" like working to feed our children?

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This message is a reply to:
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