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Author Topic:   jar - On Christianity
ringo
Member
Posts: 19613
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 136 of 307 (344953)
08-30-2006 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by GDR
08-30-2006 1:53 AM


GDR writes:

Except that one doesn't use fiction without making it clear that it is fiction.

I have a book that purports to be the "true" biography of James Bond. Truth or fiction?

If it is fiction masquerading as literal truth then it's untruthful

Who says the Bible is "masquerading" as truth?
I'll ask again: Do you need a neon sign flashing "---> FICTION <---"?

John's Gospel strongly implies that he was there.

The "true" biography of James Bond strongly implies - i.e. states flat out - that the author interviewed James Bond in person. Treasure Island strongly implies that Jim Hawkins was an eyewitness.
Truth or fiction?

With the possible exception of Luke they would all have gotten the information either first or second hand.

There's a good reason why second-hand testimony isn't acceptable in a court of law - it's unreliable.

The dialogue is written in such a way that I am led to believe that it is a telling of how it actually happened.

A lot of writers write good dialog. Good dialog is not a sign of "truth".

And what about the dialog that they most likely didn't witness - e.g. the trial(s)?

The message of the cross is central to my faith.

Maybe the message of Jesus should be central to your faith.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by GDR, posted 08-30-2006 1:53 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by GDR, posted 08-30-2006 2:36 AM ringo has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 224 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 137 of 307 (344956)
08-30-2006 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by ringo
08-30-2006 2:14 AM


Comparing books of fiction to the writing of the Bible is not the point in my view. Of course I read the Bible differently than I would Treasure Island.

Ringo writes:

There's a good reason why second-hand testimony isn't acceptable in a court of law - it's unreliable.

It wasn't all second hand and this isn't a court of law.

Ringo writes:

And what about the dialog that they most likely didn't witness - e.g. the trial(s)?

In all likelihood at least Matthew and John witnessed the trial. Also Mark collaborated with Peter who was at the trial.

How do you read the Bible? Do you see any validity in any of it? Is it just a book of good moral teachings or is it not even that? Is there any divine inspiration anywhere in it? If so; how much? Is any of it to be taken literally? Is Jesus God incarnate, a prophet, a good man or did He even exist at all.

How would YOU answer those questions?

All of these questions come have to considered in reading the Bible. I see the creation story and other many other OT stories as being true metaphors but I read the story of the crucifiction as being a fair and accurate account. If there are inexactitudes in it then they are IMHO minor and unintentional. Is it scientific? No.

Ringo writes:

Maybe the message of Jesus should be central to your faith.

Fair enough. It is. However what Jesus did on the cross is a huge part of the message.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by ringo, posted 08-30-2006 2:14 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by ringo, posted 08-30-2006 2:56 AM GDR has taken no action

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2869 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 138 of 307 (344962)
08-30-2006 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by GDR
08-30-2006 1:56 AM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
GDR:

I don't get your point. Emmanuel simply means "God with us" Same thing as calling Jesus "Son of God".

Look at you. Suddenly you want Bible authors to use artistic license.

But artistic license is the thing you deny. You have been insisting that Bible statements about Jesus are literal fact. Otherwise they are false. There is no other choice.

You have made youself very clear about this.

You insist that Bible statements be literal. So let's get literal.

The issue is not what the name Emmanuel means. The issue is what Jesus' name was.

Isaiah says 'and they will call his name Emmanuel.'

Now--for $64,000 and that round trip for 2 to the Promised Land--what was Jesus' name?

Edited by Archer Opterix, : No reason given.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19613
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 139 of 307 (344963)
08-30-2006 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by GDR
08-30-2006 2:36 AM


GDR writes:

Of course I read the Bible differently than I would Treasure Island.

But why?

It wasn't all second hand and this isn't a court of law.

Our standards should be higher, not lower.

In all likelihood at least Matthew and John witnessed the trial. Also Mark collaborated with Peter who was at the trial.

It seems to me that we have threads in the Bible Inaccuracy and Errancy Forum that suggest that the trial itself is historically implausible - a bit like Alice's trial beyond the looking-glass.

How do you read the Bible? Do you see any validity in any of it?

Are you paying attention at all? I see the Bible as much more valid than a mere historical document. Yesterday's news is fit for wrapping fish and lining birdcages, but fiction can convey timeless truth.

Is it just a book of good moral teachings or is it not even that?

There are good moral teachings in it. There's good poetry in it. There are good adventure yarns in it. There's humour in it. I don't know why you would use the adjective "just".

Is there any divine inspiration anywhere in it?

*shrug* I think there's divine inspiration in Hemingway too.

If so; how much?

Six pounds. (How do you measure "divine inspiration"?)

Is any of it to be taken literally?

Not much. As I said, it's better than that.

Is Jesus God incarnate, a prophet, a good man or did He even exist at all.

Doesn't really matter. It's the message that matters.

I see the creation story and other many other OT stories as being true metaphors but I read the story of the crucifiction as being a fair and accurate account.

I've asked other literalists how they separate metaphor from literal truth and I've never gotten a straight answer. How do you?

... what Jesus did on the cross is a huge part of the message.

Not really. What He did off the cross was much more important.


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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2869 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 140 of 307 (344983)
08-30-2006 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by robinrohan
08-27-2006 12:33 AM


fanfare for the common man
robinrohan:

Jar is no freak. His ideas are commonplace.

Not common enough, I'd say.

And Ringo's my new hero.

Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by robinrohan, posted 08-27-2006 12:33 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 307 (344997)
08-30-2006 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
08-29-2006 6:40 PM


Re: aside on dating the NT
I guess you buy the idea that it wasn't eyewitnesses, Jesus' actual disciples, who wrote the New Testament?

I'm not sure, but what I wrote would have been the authors' minimal familiarity. Then Jar says, "That's just what I believe, blah, blah, blah . . . I may be wrong, blah, blah, blah. "

Jar "believes" that he understands Jesus' message better than those who lived in that era, in that culture.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by ringo, posted 08-30-2006 1:14 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 307 (344998)
08-30-2006 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Archer Opteryx
08-30-2006 6:34 AM


Re: fanfare for the common man
Not common enough, I'd say.

Yeah, it's real "nice."


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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 143 of 307 (345019)
08-30-2006 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by GDR
08-30-2006 12:46 AM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
I think they likely belived that they saw parallels. I do not see the parallels when all of Psalm 22 is read. Yes, it can be quotemined just as you did here, but even there the image breaks down.

What Jesus said on the cross, IMHO probably quotemined but Jesus would also have been very familar with Psalm 22 and so it is not unreasonable that He said that or something similar.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced [c] my hands and my feet.

Doesn't sound to me like any foretelling and certainly not like the crucifixion of Jesus.

I have never said that they were lying. I don't doubt that they believe they saw parallels, but I don't. Jesus bones were not out of joint, he was not surrounded by dogs, his hands were not pierced.

The issue is IMHO what was the purpose of the author of Psalm 22? Frankly it reads like a general lament, one of many such Psalms. I do NOT believe it was written as prophecy.

Let me try to return to the question of Map and Territory. On any given Map there will likely be multiple routes from a point of origin to a destination. Very seldom is there only one route.

Different people choose different routes, perhaps one because it is more familar, another because it is more scenic, another to pass near a particular secondary destination, yet another because it is a route less traveled. Each choice is valid, none are "the right choice" yet each is the right choice, and each route must be constantly checked against the reality of the Territory.

Please walk with me for a moment.

Assume for a second that the author of Psalm 22 wrote nothing more than a general lament.

Later, the authors of the New Testament saw the parallels between Psalm 22 and the crucifixion of Jesus. They were the ones that then created the connection between the two. It was not created until the authors of the New Testament drew the lines. And it is not really that firm a connection. Many parts of Psalm 22 could be applied equally to either of the other two people crucified that day or to anyone crucified. Some details don't match like all the bones being out of joint (or broken in some translation).

In using Psalm 22 as prophecy lying? No, I don't think so. Is your belief that it is prophesy wrong? No, I don't think so. If it serves you as a marker, a guide, on YOUR Map then that is fine. It falls in the area where we cannot test it against the Territory and it does not harm.

This is quite different from other cases. For example the prophecy about Tyre when compared to the Territory is simply wrong. There we do have clear references that can be checked. Here though it is more a question of "what were the beliefs of the various authors and what meaning do you draw from the Map?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by GDR, posted 08-30-2006 12:46 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19613
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 144 of 307 (345040)
08-30-2006 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by robinrohan
08-30-2006 8:14 AM


robinrohan writes:

Jar "believes" that he understands Jesus' message better than those who lived in that era, in that culture.

Those who lived in that era, in that culture crucified Jesus. How "understanding" is that?


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by robinrohan, posted 08-30-2006 8:14 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by robinrohan, posted 08-30-2006 1:56 PM ringo has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 145 of 307 (345057)
08-30-2006 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by ringo
08-30-2006 1:14 PM


Those who lived in that era, in that culture crucified Jesus. How "understanding" is that

I mean whoever wrote the Bible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by ringo, posted 08-30-2006 1:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by ringo, posted 08-30-2006 2:02 PM robinrohan has replied

ringo
Member
Posts: 19613
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 146 of 307 (345058)
08-30-2006 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by robinrohan
08-30-2006 1:56 PM


robinrohan writes:

I mean whoever wrote the Bible.

You don't necessarily get the best view of the forest by pressing your nose up against one tree. Sometimes distance gives a better perspective.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by robinrohan, posted 08-30-2006 1:56 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by robinrohan, posted 08-30-2006 2:57 PM ringo has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 224 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 147 of 307 (345060)
08-30-2006 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by jar
08-30-2006 10:53 AM


Prophecy and the Crucifixion
jar writes:

What Jesus said on the cross, IMHO probably quotemined but Jesus would also have been very familar with Psalm 22 and so it is not unreasonable that He said that or something similar.

I would agree. As a matter of fact I've always thought that Jesus said that on the cross in order to make the connection between what was happening then and what had been foretold in the OT.

jar writes:

Doesn't sound to me like any foretelling and certainly not like the crucifixion of Jesus.
I have never said that they were lying. I don't doubt that they believe they saw parallels, but I don't. Jesus bones were not out of joint, he was not surrounded by dogs, his hands were not pierced

I'm not a medical person but it is my understanding that bones do come out of joint under those circumstances. His mouth was certainly dry as it even tells about in the Biblical account. His hands and feet being pierced sounds awfully close. (I know it was his wrists but my understanding is that the original language can be translated either way.) As for the dogs let's just call it metaphor, I don't really know. That quote from Psalm 22 sure creates a picture very much like the crucifixion, and as I mentioned Jesus even quoted from it on the cross which indicates that He certainly saw the connection.

As far as the map is concerned I agree that there are other maps than the Bible or even Christianity. I do believe however that the idea of having a map is to get to a destination and that destination is Jesus.I think that Christianity provides the clearest map and that the Bible gives us the clearest route to the destination.

Having said that I also believe that God has written on the hearts of everyone, (as Paul writes about in Romans), a map that leads to the destination. Other faiths that teach as an underlying principle the concept of love of others can be used as a map.

I do believe that Psalm 22 is prophetic. Is it perfectly so -- no. I have no doubt that the writers of the Gospels saw the connection between the crucifixion and Psalm 22, and that they would be sure to include the details that paralleled Psalm 22, but that is not the same thing as attributing to the Gospel account something that wasn't said or didn't occur.

jar writes:


This is quite different from other cases. For example the prophecy about Tyre when compared to the Territory is simply wrong. There we do have clear references that can be checked. Here though it is more a question of "what were the beliefs of the various authors and what meaning do you draw from the Map?

To be honest I have never been all that concerned about Biblical prophesy in general as to how accurate their predictions were. In general I just accept that there is a reason that they are there whether they occurred as forecast or not. The Bible has to be read in total context and there are certainly cultural interests and ambiguities in the telling of God's interaction with his creation.

For myself I'm just trying to be what God wants me to be today, to ask for forgiveness for what is past and to seek His assistance to be more what He wants me to be tomorrow.

Edited by GDR, : Changed title


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 307 (345078)
08-30-2006 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by ringo
08-30-2006 2:02 PM


The Lens of Time
Except in some special case, where there is a secret agenda which is later exposed, we understand less and less about a person's intentions
as the years accumulate. His contemporaries and those who were his near-contemporaries understood Jesus' utterances and actions far better than we can because they were much more aware of the context of his remarks, the references he made which are lost on us, the traditions, the laws, and so on.

To give an example, Brian's thread on the incident with Barrabas is intended to painstakingly investigate what would have been well-known to anyone who lived in that time and in that area. Brian can only conclude that it was "highly unlikely" that such a tradition existed. A contemporary would have known for certain.


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 Message 151 by ringo, posted 08-30-2006 5:05 PM robinrohan has replied
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 307 (345082)
08-30-2006 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by robinrohan
08-30-2006 2:57 PM


Re: The Lens of Time
What, after all, are we to do with such passages as this?

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed [it], and brake [it], and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Jesus seems to be saying he's paying for sins with the shedding of his blood. Jar wants to ignore such passages because it doesn't make sense to him. He wants to "modernize" the ideas so that it WILL make sense to him. He turns Jesus into a good-humored party-going liberal suburbanite who thinks we "have to learn to love ourselves"--ideas straight out of modern pop culture.

Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 150 of 307 (345109)
08-30-2006 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Brian
08-28-2006 3:24 PM


Re: Questions
So, you don't love God Ray?

I am not the focus here - Jar is.

He claims that the way a person fulfills the First Commandment is by loving ones neighbor.

The error here is the conflation of the First and Second Commandments.

The ONLY way to fulfill the First Commandment, that is, love an invisible and untouchable God is to do what pleases Him. Hebrews 11:6 says ONLY faith pleases God, therefore, if we continually trust Him by N.T. faith (and in the Greek pisteo (faith) is a verb and not a noun) then we are pleasing God, and thus loving Him, and fulfilling the First Commandment.

The only way to have faith in God is to act on a promise found in the Bible until God brings it to pass in ones life.

As Jar is fond of saying, "it is really just as simple as that".

Ray


This message is a reply to:
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