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Author Topic:   jar - On Christianity
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 759 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 196 of 307 (345318)
08-31-2006 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by robinrohan
08-31-2006 12:31 AM


I understand that, but these were Christians of the maximally deluded sort who followed a deluded leader to the max. It's easy to understand that you are attracted to nihilism in general. It's not easy to explain how these totally sold-out supernaturalist Christians also impress you with their "nihilism" -- which is really realism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 12:31 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 12:47 AM Faith has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 1828 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 197 of 307 (345320)
08-31-2006 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Faith
08-31-2006 12:11 AM


Re: Faith argues 'apparent sanity' of some Christians
???????????

I don't get what this has to do with the in(sanity) of those who people follow.


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 08-31-2006 12:11 AM Faith has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 198 of 307 (345321)
08-31-2006 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Faith
08-31-2006 12:35 AM


It's easy to understand that you are attracted to nihilism in general. It's not easy to explain how these totally sold-out supernaturalist Christians also impress you with their "nihilism" -- which is really realism.

OK, I get it. These devout Christians look out "into the world of men" and they see, in the words of John Henry Newman, a sight that fills them with "unspeakable distress." They see no God.

So do the nihilists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 08-31-2006 12:35 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Faith, posted 08-31-2006 12:57 AM robinrohan has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 759 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 199 of 307 (345324)
08-31-2006 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by robinrohan
08-31-2006 12:47 AM


It's easy to understand that you are attracted to nihilism in general. It's not easy to explain how these totally sold-out supernaturalist Christians also impress you with their "nihilism" -- which is really realism.

OK, I get it. These devout Christians look out "into the world of men" and they see, in the words of John Henry Newman, a sight that fills them with "unspeakable distress." They see no God.

So do the nihilists.

The nihilists see no God at all, but Christians see the condition of humanity in their denial of God -- big difference. They know, because they were once of the world themselves, and because they know Christian theology, the realities of the human condition. They know that the world is fallen, and the only way out of it is through Jesus Christ. They are merely describing this state of things in their own way, as part of their own Christian teaching of others.

{edit: This is true Christianity. It is a far cry from the sentimentalist Christianity you are deploring.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 12:47 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 1:14 AM Faith has replied
 Message 201 by kuresu, posted 08-31-2006 1:40 AM Faith has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 200 of 307 (345327)
08-31-2006 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by Faith
08-31-2006 12:57 AM


This is true Christianity. It is a far cry from the sentimentalist Christianity you are deploring

Well, yes, but let's hear from our old friend Newman:

Starting then with the being of a God (which, as I have said, is as certain to me as the certainty of my own existence, though when I try to put the grounds of that certainty into logical shape I find a difficulty in doing so in mood and figure to my satisfaction,) I look out of myself into the world of men, and there I see a sight that fills me with unspeakable distress. The world simply seems to give the lie to that great truth, of which my whole being is so full; and the effect upon me is, in consequence, as a matter of necessity, as confusing as if it denied that I am in existence myself. If I looked into a mirror, and did not see my face, I should have the sort of feeling which comes upon me, when I look into this living busy world, and see no reflection of its Creator.

Good stuff, huh? Far cry from the stuff on this forum.

Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Faith, posted 08-31-2006 12:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Faith, posted 08-31-2006 1:56 AM robinrohan has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 1828 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 201 of 307 (345331)
08-31-2006 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by Faith
08-31-2006 12:57 AM


so true christianity is about fire and brimstone, death and destruction, despair and failure?

what the hell kind of religion is that?
talk about the biggest cop out there is--sin ain't my fault, it's the Fall. And who cares, God'll forgive.

you know, it really sounds like some pagan religions--almost vikingesque.

Interesting note about Jonathan Edwards--he read he most famous sermon with a straight face and completely monotone. and it still scared the hell out of people.

But who uses fear to convert? It doesn't lend itself towards stability or continud belief.


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Faith, posted 08-31-2006 12:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Faith, posted 08-31-2006 2:07 AM kuresu has replied
 Message 206 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 9:03 AM kuresu has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 759 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 202 of 307 (345333)
08-31-2006 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by robinrohan
08-31-2006 1:14 AM


Good stuff, huh? Far cry from the stuff on this forum.

You ARE an aesthete after all. You appreciate great ideas but keep yourself apart from them. Sometimes you may only get a thrill out of the way the words flow trippingly off the tongue, as in the case of the great nihilistic passages of Ecclesiastes.

You appreciate the way the world's emptiness of God, or really, annihilation of God, brings Newman to a state of despair that is like the anninilation of his own existence, but you savor it as if it were nothing but pleasing sounds, crafted words.

You yourself don't feel the emptiness of God, you accept the emptiness of God in the world, you think this is all there is. There's no despair in it, no desperation. There's no edge to it. Those would be appropriate expressions of nihilism, as opposed to a merely aesthetic or makebelieve nihilism, rather than this jaded tasting of a gourmet intellectual feast washed down with another bottle of beer.

Your nihilism just sits there like a fat frog waiting for a fly. It should push you to something.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : rewrote last paragraph

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 1:14 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by iano, posted 08-31-2006 5:05 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 218 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 1:18 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 759 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 203 of 307 (345334)
08-31-2006 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by kuresu
08-31-2006 1:40 AM


so true christianity is about fire and brimstone, death and destruction, despair and failure?

Not at all. That's what the world and fallen nature are about. Christ is the way out of it.

Of course if you deny that's what the world is about, if you are content with the status quo, you'll never seek a way out of it, and that's the worst possible state to be in. That's why preachers who really care about your fate try to scare you out of your complacency by telling you the truth about your condition.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by kuresu, posted 08-31-2006 1:40 AM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by kuresu, posted 08-31-2006 2:21 AM Faith has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 1828 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 204 of 307 (345337)
08-31-2006 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Faith
08-31-2006 2:07 AM


And since I don't belief a fall happened, since I don't believe that we're a lost cause without christ (and apparently there are many religions that agree with me as to the latter), what need do I have of someone to get me out of a situation I'm nt in.

Christ is about as worthwhile as a detective at a scene in which no crime happened.

He teaches some good stuff, but he's not needed to find the way out of this nonexistant failure that mankind is in.

their truth is different from my truth, just as yours is different from jars. and that's why I hate those people who try to tell me that I'm damned for all eternity if I don't convert and belief in Christ.

I'm not damned. I don't think there's an afterlife.


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Faith, posted 08-31-2006 2:07 AM Faith has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1256 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 205 of 307 (345351)
08-31-2006 5:05 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Faith
08-31-2006 1:56 AM


Your nihilism just sits there like a fat frog waiting for a fly. It should push you to something.

Well observed sis. I think I remember Robin talking before of experiencing some ache at the sight of infinite seas and skies - his insignificance. But ache doesn't exactly drip from the pages of his posting does it?

Could this be sentimental nihilism..on a par with the sentimental Christianity that Robin detests so much?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Faith, posted 08-31-2006 1:56 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 9:49 AM iano has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 206 of 307 (345378)
08-31-2006 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by kuresu
08-31-2006 1:40 AM


what the hell kind of religion is that?

The point I was making, Kuresi, is that at least these old Christians were honest. Look at that quote from Newman. He looks out into the world and sees no sign of God. Exactly.

What he sees--and what I see--is ACCIDENT.

Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.


"Your friends, if they can, may bury you with some distinction, and set up a monument, to let posterity see that your dust lies under such a stone; and when that is done, all is done. Your place is filled up by another, the world is just in the same state it was, you are blotted out of its sight, and as much forgotten by the world as if you had never belonged to it."--William Law

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by kuresu, posted 08-31-2006 1:40 AM kuresu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by iano, posted 08-31-2006 9:15 AM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 211 by Faith, posted 08-31-2006 11:24 AM robinrohan has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1256 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 207 of 307 (345380)
08-31-2006 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by robinrohan
08-31-2006 9:03 AM


Of course that is what you see. The Bible says a) you are blind and so are unable to see God b) you can do nothing about your own blindness. Do you remember this story?

iano writes:

When we were young, my mother used to bring us for walks down by the Dodder river in Dublin. Just as she had done as a kid, she began to teach us to fish for pinkines (tiny little fish). We arrived down with our glass jars and little bag-nets attached to bamboo poles.

"Look, Look!" she would cry excitedly "There they are - millions of them" We'd look and see nothing "Just THERE!! right in front of you yes right there!!" We could still see nothing.

Mam was looking through the surface at the fish below. Us kids were looking at the reflection off the surface and couldn't see a thing but our own faces. Mam wasn't deluded. She pointed at something that was there alright. The problem was we didn't know how to look

There was only one thing which was involved with us making the shift. We believed that our mother wasn't deluded. That she was telling us the truth. She had put faith in her into us and we expressed the faith she had put into us and kept looking because we believed what she said. And through that faith she had given us we came to see.

Its exactly the same thing with Christ. But you think he is deluded - despite that not at all fitting the man. You don't think deluded in fact - you think things that he said and did were impossible. That is disbelief. God will put that faith into you, unless you reject his attempts to do so.

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for (to see pinkines), the evidence of things not seen (the pinkines were there and the evidence was our faith in mam)"

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 9:03 AM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 208 of 307 (345389)
08-31-2006 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by iano
08-31-2006 5:05 AM


Could this be sentimental nihilism

It would be sentimental if I pretended to feel an angst that I do not in fact feel. The only reason I mention the nihilism is to counter the sentimentality that I am barraged with on this forum from all sides.

The atheists are out to show how happy they are and how wonderful everything is without God.

The New Age Christians like Jar are telling us how beautiful and awesome everything is as long as we learn to love ourselves and be interactive and public-spirited and refer to God as "She" occasionally (the requisite political correctness).

There's no rest for the weary around this place, but one must do one's duty.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by iano, posted 08-31-2006 5:05 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by iano, posted 08-31-2006 10:25 AM robinrohan has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1256 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 209 of 307 (345394)
08-31-2006 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by robinrohan
08-31-2006 9:49 AM


There's no rest for the weary around this place, but one must do one's duty.

Might I be so presumptious as to suggest you find a resting place with those who say they find their rest in him. That of all worldviews (bar nihilism), Christianity strikes you as most reasonable - the only problem being you can't see it?

God pulls people to him by eliminating all other possibilities (in my own experience)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 9:49 AM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-31-2006 10:17 PM iano has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 210 of 307 (345402)
08-31-2006 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by GDR
08-31-2006 12:23 AM


Re: Questions
While some folk have tried to equate my use of "you must first love yourself" as self-esteem, I believe that it is actually quite different and is reflected in what Lewis said.

Far from being some simple pride in oneself, what I picture is an honest and continuing look at and appraisal of YOU. It requires that you really do those things outlined as the basis and prerequisite for confession, look at those things you have done, and have not done.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by GDR, posted 08-31-2006 12:23 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 11:35 AM jar has replied

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