Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 66 (9078 total)
103 online now:
nwr, PaulK, Percy (Admin) (3 members, 100 visitors)
Newest Member: harveyspecter
Post Volume: Total: 895,277 Year: 6,389/6,534 Month: 582/650 Week: 120/232 Day: 5/54 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   jar - On Christianity
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 101 of 307 (344828)
08-29-2006 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by robinrohan
08-29-2006 5:50 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Depends on how you read it. The fireman that devotes his life to saving folks gives his blood sweat and tears. If you read those in context I see them as talking about Jesus life, His whole life, the whole message.

As I said the idea of GOD killing himself to pay himself for our sins when He had the ability to forgive them anyway is just plain silly.

On the other hand, the idea of GOD making the sacrifice of becoming human, just human, with belly aches and teething problems and being a helpless baby and awkward youth and not knowing how to do things and always getting picked last for the game of chase the donkey and stubbing His toe, just to show use what we CAN be, to die and be raised from the dead to show us what WILL be, to teach us as one of us, that is awesome and magnicficent.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 5:50 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 6:12 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 103 of 307 (344837)
08-29-2006 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by robinrohan
08-29-2006 6:12 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
So these authors who lived around 60-100 AD, who grew up in the same culture that Jesus did, who perhaps knew people who knew Him, got him wrong, whereas you, living 2000 years later, in an extremely different culture, mindset, different language, different associations, etc., got him right.

Got no idea if I have it right or not. Said that many times. All I can tell you is what I believe and lay out why I believe it.

Sorry, if you want ANSWERs you came to the wrong stall.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 6:12 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 6:22 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 106 of 307 (344841)
08-29-2006 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by GDR
08-29-2006 6:22 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Frankly I don't know why there wasn't an easier way to do it, but when it is foretold in the OT and reconfirmed by Christ himself in the NT I'm inclined not to dismiss it as silly.

On the subject of it being foretold in the OT, so far I have never been able to see any of those either.

Personally I'm prepared to admit that God has a better understanding of what is necessary than I do and I'm prepared to take it on faith.

I don't have a problem with that. I have never suggested that anyone else believe what I believe. All I can do is lay out what I believe and why I believe it.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 6:22 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 6:29 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 108 of 307 (344847)
08-29-2006 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by GDR
08-29-2006 6:29 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Certainly not refering to Jesus.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 6:29 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 6:54 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 111 of 307 (344855)
08-29-2006 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by GDR
08-29-2006 6:54 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
It is a general lament, certainly not the crucifixion.

The only way that it can be tied in is by quotemining it and that is very likely what the authors of the New Testament did, pulled pieces out of it and incorporated them into their tale.

But if you read the whole thing it is definitely not talking about the crucifixion.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 6:54 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 7:41 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 114 of 307 (344868)
08-29-2006 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by GDR
08-29-2006 7:41 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Okay, no problem.

I am happy to try to explain how I see it whenever you want.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 7:41 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 8:52 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 116 of 307 (344896)
08-29-2006 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by GDR
08-29-2006 8:52 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Your statement implies that the writers of the Bible felt free to make up parts of the Bible in order to build a religion. I might point out that some of these texts were written by Christian martyrs. It is one thing to discern what is literal and what is metaphor but it is another entirely have to discern what is truthful and what is a lie.

Well, I'm sorry but it was written to build a religion. It is a sales document.

It is not a matter of lying either. The authors of the New Testament we selling, and they did draw from things they were familar with and used that material. That includes all the earlier works. But if you read all of Psalm 22 it isn't speaking about Jesus or the crucifixion. All of Jesus bones weren't broken, and the Lord did not hear the cry for help. Jesus died that day.

Trying to make stuff like Psalm 22 shoehorn into being fortelling just plain diminishes the story in my opinion. Read Psalm 22 as it was meant, as a general lamentation, but don't pretend it is more than that. That is just not needed.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 8:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 9:42 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 118 of 307 (344902)
08-29-2006 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by GDR
08-29-2006 9:42 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
I never said they were charlatans. I did say they were selling a product. Paul did it all the time. One great example is the story of the Unnamed God. Paul simply took a local custom and marketed it to make his point.

This isn't lying. It's likely that just as you see that parts of Psalm 22 can be pulled out and applied to the New Testament and so they did. But I look at the whole thing and see an equal number of parts that don't apply.

Then there was the 9 out of 10 Rabbis surveyed prefered Christianity campaign. :P


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 9:42 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 10:10 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 120 of 307 (344906)
08-29-2006 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by GDR
08-29-2006 10:10 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Could you tell me what it is that you believe about the Holy Spirit. Does He intervene in our lives either spiritually or physically, was He involved at all in the formulating of the Bible and does He even exist.

I believe the Holy Spirit exists, I do think he intervenes in our lives, I don't think he selected the words of the Bible but most likely motivated the authors.

AbE:

One more thing that maybe I have never mentioned.

Christianity is the Map, not the Territory.

Edited by jar, : add map


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 10:10 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 10:44 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 122 of 307 (344917)
08-29-2006 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by GDR
08-29-2006 10:44 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Did he motivate them to write untruths?

No. Are they really untruths? I don't think so. They used what they had to market what they believed in.

jar said:

quote:
Christianity is the Map, not the Territory.

and you asked:

Can you elaborate.

Sure. Christianity is not GOD. It is a Map, and like all maps just a representation of GOD. It is a pathway and guide, but it is not the actual Territory. The Bible is just one of the insets in that Map, a key. It shows what the symbol for the road is , paved highways, bridges, there be dragons, but it is not the road, the bridge, or the dragon.

GOD is more than all of those and worshiping the Bible or even Christianity is mistaking the Map for the Territory IMHO.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 10:44 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 11:43 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 126 of 307 (344927)
08-29-2006 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by GDR
08-29-2006 11:43 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Correct, it is but a Map. I agree.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 11:43 PM GDR has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 128 of 307 (344930)
08-30-2006 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by GDR
08-29-2006 11:52 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Jar (I can capitalize jar at the beginning of a sentence can't I? ), can call it marketing if he wants to, but I still call it lying.

But I also have no doubt that the folk believed what they were doing, were sincere in what they were doing. I just think they were wrong. When they quotemined parts from the Old Testament and included them in the New, I don't think they were lying. I think they read Psalm 22 and said "Wow. This parallels our story!" That does not mean though that Psalm 22 was written to foretell Jesus any more than the fact that Jules Verne located the canon to shoot the folk to the moon in From the Earth to the Moon in Florida was written to foretell Kennedy Space Center.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 11:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by GDR, posted 08-30-2006 12:46 AM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 143 of 307 (345019)
08-30-2006 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by GDR
08-30-2006 12:46 AM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
I think they likely belived that they saw parallels. I do not see the parallels when all of Psalm 22 is read. Yes, it can be quotemined just as you did here, but even there the image breaks down.

What Jesus said on the cross, IMHO probably quotemined but Jesus would also have been very familar with Psalm 22 and so it is not unreasonable that He said that or something similar.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced [c] my hands and my feet.

Doesn't sound to me like any foretelling and certainly not like the crucifixion of Jesus.

I have never said that they were lying. I don't doubt that they believe they saw parallels, but I don't. Jesus bones were not out of joint, he was not surrounded by dogs, his hands were not pierced.

The issue is IMHO what was the purpose of the author of Psalm 22? Frankly it reads like a general lament, one of many such Psalms. I do NOT believe it was written as prophecy.

Let me try to return to the question of Map and Territory. On any given Map there will likely be multiple routes from a point of origin to a destination. Very seldom is there only one route.

Different people choose different routes, perhaps one because it is more familar, another because it is more scenic, another to pass near a particular secondary destination, yet another because it is a route less traveled. Each choice is valid, none are "the right choice" yet each is the right choice, and each route must be constantly checked against the reality of the Territory.

Please walk with me for a moment.

Assume for a second that the author of Psalm 22 wrote nothing more than a general lament.

Later, the authors of the New Testament saw the parallels between Psalm 22 and the crucifixion of Jesus. They were the ones that then created the connection between the two. It was not created until the authors of the New Testament drew the lines. And it is not really that firm a connection. Many parts of Psalm 22 could be applied equally to either of the other two people crucified that day or to anyone crucified. Some details don't match like all the bones being out of joint (or broken in some translation).

In using Psalm 22 as prophecy lying? No, I don't think so. Is your belief that it is prophesy wrong? No, I don't think so. If it serves you as a marker, a guide, on YOUR Map then that is fine. It falls in the area where we cannot test it against the Territory and it does not harm.

This is quite different from other cases. For example the prophecy about Tyre when compared to the Territory is simply wrong. There we do have clear references that can be checked. Here though it is more a question of "what were the beliefs of the various authors and what meaning do you draw from the Map?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by GDR, posted 08-30-2006 12:46 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by GDR, posted 08-30-2006 2:11 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 210 of 307 (345402)
08-31-2006 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by GDR
08-31-2006 12:23 AM


Re: Questions
While some folk have tried to equate my use of "you must first love yourself" as self-esteem, I believe that it is actually quite different and is reflected in what Lewis said.

Far from being some simple pride in oneself, what I picture is an honest and continuing look at and appraisal of YOU. It requires that you really do those things outlined as the basis and prerequisite for confession, look at those things you have done, and have not done.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by GDR, posted 08-31-2006 12:23 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 11:35 AM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 214 of 307 (345417)
08-31-2006 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by robinrohan
08-31-2006 11:35 AM


Re: Questions
The way you speak of it, self-love is a merit and a necessity.

Well, almost half right. I think it is essential as I described it; an honest evaluation and critique of YOU. It has merit, but only because it is how you modify your behavior. It is not something of merit in the sense that you should be proud or it or that it enhances self-esteem.

It really is that simple, but it is not easy to do.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 11:35 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 11:55 AM jar has replied
 Message 222 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-31-2006 4:57 PM jar has not replied
 Message 260 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-01-2006 4:12 PM jar has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022