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Author Topic:   jar - On Christianity
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 216 of 307 (345426)
08-31-2006 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by robinrohan
08-31-2006 11:55 AM


Re: Questions
Be honest and critical of God and be honest and critical of others as you are honest and critical of yourself.

I have no problem with that as a first and partial step. The second part is to remember that we are charged to try to do what is right and try not to do what is wrong.

Perhaps this is a chance for the first time in this thread to return to the topic. In Message 1 (which based on the posts in this thread folk just skipped over) I said:

As a Christian I think one of the first things needed is some personal honesty. That is, it seems to me, a basic tenet and requirement of the faith, the religion called Christianity. It is inherent in the confession. We are expected to honestly look at ourselves, our lives and our behavior and see where we have done wrong, where we have failed to do right, to acknowledge those failings and try to do better in the future.

I believe that honest look at yourself, at others, at the religion called Christianity and the communion called Christianity and at GOD is essential.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 11:55 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 1:04 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 220 of 307 (345462)
08-31-2006 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by robinrohan
08-31-2006 1:45 PM


Re: Questions
Maybe some people think that destroying these cultures was a good thing to do.

Many folk do. Folk right here at EvC have said that civilizing the barbarian was a good thing.

After all, morals are subjective, right? Who's to say you're right and they're wrong?

Each of us must answer that question individually.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 1:45 PM robinrohan has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 253 of 307 (345768)
09-01-2006 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by GDR
09-01-2006 3:02 PM


Re: World views
Sounds really dull and boring. Sure hope it's not like that.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by GDR, posted 09-01-2006 3:02 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by GDR, posted 09-01-2006 3:18 PM jar has not replied
 Message 255 by purpledawn, posted 09-01-2006 3:20 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 261 of 307 (345791)
09-01-2006 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Archer Opteryx
09-01-2006 4:12 PM


Re: Questions
Well, I am a Whiskeypalian (AKA Episcopalian) which is part of the Anglican Communion, so certainly in that tradition. It is one of seeking, questioning and search, less ready with answers than many branches.

The BCP is a phenominal resource, predating even the KJV and they were both monumental works. IMHO they are particularly important because they stressed opening the theology to the Vulgate, to include the peoples in what had before been hidden by restricting it to the formal Latin. The BCP in particular was unusual because it included some of the source documents as well as a full listing of the procedures of ceremony and also the ordering of materials to be considered.

I think there were many things that affected my outlook. One of course was the tradition of questioning. Second was that over the years I was lucky enough to have teacher after teacher, mentor after mentor that pushed me towards questioning and that was then tempered by exposure to environments where the norm was acceptance of authority. The later was so very important as it was those experiences in environments of acceptance that highlighted just how stifling and limited that approach is.

There have been some real bummers in the COE as well. Elizabeth I was not really that nice a person and Henry himself left a lot to be desired. But so much of that was likely just the result of conflict of calendars.

Robin Williams once posted the Top Ten Reasons to be an Episcopalian. I think they are pretty compelling.

10. No snake handling.

9. You can believe in dinosaurs.

8. Male and female, God created them; male and female, we ordain them.

7. You don't have to check your brains at the door.

6. Pew aerobics.

5. Church year is color coded!

4. Free wine on Sunday.

3. All of the pageantry, none of the guilt.

2. You don't have to know how to swim to get baptized.

And the number one reason for being an Episcopalian:

1. No matter what you believe, there's bound to be at least one other Episcopalian who agrees with you.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-01-2006 4:12 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-01-2006 4:57 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 263 of 307 (345797)
09-01-2006 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Archer Opteryx
09-01-2006 4:57 PM


Re: Questions
If you don't mind, jar, I'd be interested in knowing more about that moment when you realized not everybody's religion involved the atmosphere of healthy questioning you were used to. Care to share?

I don't think that there really was such a moment. As long as I can remember I've always felt like this was my journey, not anyone elses. They all have their own lives, their own journey, their own waypoints and destination. I am on my road. I can post travelogs and show snapshots taken along the way, but it can never be anything other than my story.

What might happen is that someone else reading a travelog or seeing the snapshots might try to revisit those locations or follow the same trail, but what they will find is that they are on their journey and even if they visit exactly the same places, follow exactly the same trail, what they will see, what they will experience, what they will learn, will be theirs, not mine.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-01-2006 4:57 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 283 of 307 (346022)
09-02-2006 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Archer Opteryx
09-01-2006 4:57 PM


Re: Questions
Was there a statement that stands out in your mind? Any deja vu when you read posts here?

I didn't answer that question at first because I wasn't sure it was appropriate. But as seen in Message 273, it may be more significant than I thought initially.

There was a series of adult Sunday school classes I used to teach. They looked at the birth of the COE and a whole host of other issues and practices of the time relating theological events and decisions to the everyday life and technology of the time.

When I first suggested the series I sat down with the Priest and outlined where I would go and some of the things that I thought he might object to. He asked me to give him a short outline to look over and that he would get back to me, which I promptly did. My expectation since it was a pretty conservative church in a very conservative area was that I'd get a polite "Thanks but no thanks" response.

I got a call the first thing the next morning as I was going out the door to work. He was really excited about the course and how soon could I start and would it bother me if he sat in on it and could I come by after work and talk with him about it.

To make a long story somewhat shorter, he and I decided that it should be a four week course, and so I laid out the material based on that. The first sunday came and I began the talk to the usual suspects, the parents who had kids in the childrens sunday school and lived too far away to make it worthwhile to drive home and come back. I explained at the beginning that I might say things folk disagreed with, asked that they wait until the end to just dismiss what I said, but that please, anytime that questions came up, ask them and I would stop and go into more detail.

At the end of that first sunday it was obvious I had no chance of making it through the material in just four classes. We had covered less that a third of the material in the first class which really was just to set the stage for what was to follow.

The priest then asked the folk there what they wanted to do, did they want to followup on this and expand it until we got to the end, or keep it as a four week schedule? Everyone there said let's work through this, and we decided on a format where I would present the next part in the first half hour then the second half hour of each class would be discussion.

Two things stand out in relation to that class. First, every single week (and it eventually lasted about three months) there were more adults there. Second, at the end the priest asked if he could have copies of all of my notes and handouts for his files.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-01-2006 4:57 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 291 of 307 (346261)
09-03-2006 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Archer Opteryx
09-03-2006 3:53 PM


Re: Annie Dillard
One of the things I liked about Tinker Creek is that it is much like the stretch of Turkey Run I was familar with. The areas she describes, the landscapes of experience are much like what I grew up with, the same hills and valleys, streams and forests, the same (well close to the same, she is just a touch younger than me IIRC) time period.

Thinking back on Tinker Creek, and it is one that I had not thought about in many years, one thing that struck me was the influence that Walden seemed to cast over all she wrote. She does reach out though, past the bounds of Christianity, and reflecting in many ways the nuances of my sig.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-03-2006 3:53 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 300 of 307 (346584)
09-05-2006 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by kuresu
09-05-2006 12:37 AM


On the Fall
The Fall is a handy copout IMHO, yet another way for folk to shift the blame elsewhere. It is one of the ways to avoid taking responsibility for your own acts, "Man is filled with a sinful nature since the Fall", "We are Cursed", "All was perfect before the Fall."

The story of the Garden of Eden is among other things the charge that WE know right from wrong, and that WE are expected to try to do what is right and to try not to do what is wrong.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by kuresu, posted 09-05-2006 12:37 AM kuresu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Phat, posted 11-07-2010 11:48 AM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 303 of 307 (590288)
11-07-2010 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by Phat
11-07-2010 11:48 AM


Re: Our top posters beliefs revisited
Phat writes:

OK, great. So everyone starts out saved rather than damned. Its a free gift. Got it. Yet we still get judged by what we DO versus what we COULD have done? If so, I hope that God liberally applies grace and forgiveness. NONE of us will fully do what we could have done.

No, we do not start off saved, we do not start off damned either.

If there is salvation, then the salvation is a free gift, not something earned.

Phat writes:

How do these beliefs square with the latest scientific theories on (get this) not just a universe, but a potential multiverse.

They do not square with ANY scientific evidence.

Phat writes:

Yet the injustices of this world continue today as they have for many years. This gets back to the parables. Nobody wants to sacrifice their own comfort to help others. We as humans can easily give out of our abundance, and in fact seek abundance in order to feel secure. If God chooses to kill me for that, I cant argue with Her!

But we are charged and I believe will be judged based on whether or not we tried to stop injustices, make reparations and restitution.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Phat, posted 11-07-2010 11:48 AM Phat has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 307 of 307 (761811)
07-05-2015 10:03 PM


Why Phat Why
Why are you posting material in a thread that has already been placed in summation mode only to take one piece of what I wrote in this thread out of context?

Sheesh.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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