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Author Topic:   jar - On Christianity
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 715 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 211 of 307 (345409)
08-31-2006 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by robinrohan
08-31-2006 9:03 AM


The point I was making, Kuresi, is that at least these old Christians were honest. Look at that quote from Newman. He looks out into the world and sees no sign of God. Exactly.

What he sees--and what I see--is ACCIDENT.

I don't think that's what he means at all, at least as far as I can judge from that one paragraph. He starts out emphasizing his own belief in God, and from that vantage what he sees is a world that doesn't reflect God as he does, a world that denies God's existence, not a world truly bereft of God, not mere accident. But maybe I'm misreading the passage. Maybe more context would tell me otherwise.

{Edit: Always with these Christian writers their belief is standing behind it all. William Law's description of the way the world treats each of us when we die has behind it his experience of a world to look forward to that answers the meaninglessness of this fallen world.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 9:03 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 212 of 307 (345415)
08-31-2006 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by jar
08-31-2006 10:59 AM


Re: Questions
While some folk have tried to equate my use of "you must first love yourself" as self-esteem, I believe that it is actually quite different and is reflected in what Lewis said.

Lewis' description of self-love and yours are very different.

Lewis is not saying we have to "learn to love ourselves." He accepts that we do automatically. He's explaining what self-love consists of, and what it consists of is good will toward oneself. One keeps on having good will toward oneself no matter what one does.

The way you speak of it, self-love is a merit and a necessity.

Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by jar, posted 08-31-2006 10:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 221 by Omnivorous, posted 08-31-2006 4:50 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 213 of 307 (345416)
08-31-2006 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Faith
08-31-2006 11:24 AM


I don't think that's what he means at all, at least as far as I can judge from that one paragraph. He starts out emphasizing his own belief in God, and from that vantage what he sees is a world that doesn't reflect God as he does, a world that denies God's existence, not a world truly bereft of God, not mere accident. But maybe I'm misreading the passage. Maybe more context would tell me otherwise.

Yes, it's taken out of context. He's working up to talk about the Fall.


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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 214 of 307 (345417)
08-31-2006 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by robinrohan
08-31-2006 11:35 AM


Re: Questions
The way you speak of it, self-love is a merit and a necessity.

Well, almost half right. I think it is essential as I described it; an honest evaluation and critique of YOU. It has merit, but only because it is how you modify your behavior. It is not something of merit in the sense that you should be proud or it or that it enhances self-esteem.

It really is that simple, but it is not easy to do.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 11:55 AM jar has replied
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 Message 260 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-01-2006 4:12 PM jar has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 307 (345422)
08-31-2006 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by jar
08-31-2006 11:42 AM


Re: Questions
an honest evaluation and critique of YOU.

A rather eccentric definition of the term "love."

Love GOD and love others as you love yourself.

So if we use your definitiion of "love," we can translate the above as follows:

Be honest and critical of God and be honest and critical of others as you are honest and critical of yourself.

You don't seem to be critiquing God very much.

Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by jar, posted 08-31-2006 11:42 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by jar, posted 08-31-2006 12:04 PM robinrohan has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 216 of 307 (345426)
08-31-2006 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by robinrohan
08-31-2006 11:55 AM


Re: Questions
Be honest and critical of God and be honest and critical of others as you are honest and critical of yourself.

I have no problem with that as a first and partial step. The second part is to remember that we are charged to try to do what is right and try not to do what is wrong.

Perhaps this is a chance for the first time in this thread to return to the topic. In Message 1 (which based on the posts in this thread folk just skipped over) I said:

As a Christian I think one of the first things needed is some personal honesty. That is, it seems to me, a basic tenet and requirement of the faith, the religion called Christianity. It is inherent in the confession. We are expected to honestly look at ourselves, our lives and our behavior and see where we have done wrong, where we have failed to do right, to acknowledge those failings and try to do better in the future.

I believe that honest look at yourself, at others, at the religion called Christianity and the communion called Christianity and at GOD is essential.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 307 (345439)
08-31-2006 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by jar
08-31-2006 12:04 PM


Re: Questions
I believe that honest look at yourself, at others, at the religion called Christianity and the communion called Christianity and at GOD is essential.

I doubt that anyone is going to disagree with that.

They might add, however, that the story you present about Christianity is a bit one-sided, unless you think that Christians never did anything that was good.


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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 218 of 307 (345443)
08-31-2006 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Faith
08-31-2006 1:56 AM


rather than this jaded tasting of a gourmet intellectual feast washed down with another bottle of beer.

That was cruel. Also funny.


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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 219 of 307 (345455)
08-31-2006 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by robinrohan
08-31-2006 1:04 PM


Re: Questions
The Padre that accompanied the Conquistadores and that burned the Codices did it for what they saw as the best of reasons, saving souls. This refrain has been repeated time after time and over issue after issue. It is only later, when we look back on the sermons written on how to civilize the savage, what the place of the Blackman in society is, on the terrible wrong we did in destroying cultures and beliefs that we realize how wrong we were.

Maybe some people think that destroying these cultures was a good thing to do. After all, morals are subjective, right? Who's to say you're right and they're wrong?


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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 220 of 307 (345462)
08-31-2006 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by robinrohan
08-31-2006 1:45 PM


Re: Questions
Maybe some people think that destroying these cultures was a good thing to do.

Many folk do. Folk right here at EvC have said that civilizing the barbarian was a good thing.

After all, morals are subjective, right? Who's to say you're right and they're wrong?

Each of us must answer that question individually.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 221 of 307 (345495)
08-31-2006 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by robinrohan
08-31-2006 11:35 AM


Re: Questions
robin writes:

Lewis is not saying we have to "learn to love ourselves." He accepts that we do automatically. He's explaining what self-love consists of, and what it consists of is good will toward oneself. One keeps on having good will toward oneself no matter what one does.

Some people experience keen self-loathing, sometimes terminally so.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 11:35 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 5:06 PM Omnivorous has replied
 Message 224 by Faith, posted 08-31-2006 7:11 PM Omnivorous has replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2868 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 222 of 307 (345497)
08-31-2006 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by jar
08-31-2006 11:42 AM


Re: Questions
jar writes:

It really is that simple, but it is not easy to do.

Jewish and Christian theologians have long recognized the worth of 'the greatest commandment.'

Loving God and loving others as yourself is the work of a lifetime.


Archer

All species are transitional.


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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 223 of 307 (345502)
08-31-2006 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Omnivorous
08-31-2006 4:50 PM


Re: Questions
Some people experience keen self-loathing, sometimes terminally so.

In rare cases. I'm speaking of most people.


This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 715 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 224 of 307 (345519)
08-31-2006 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Omnivorous
08-31-2006 4:50 PM


Some people experience keen self-loathing, sometimes terminally so.

This is true, so they kill themselves, but don't they kill themselves to end the pain and isn't that really self-love?

I don't see how to get around the fact that every one of us is full of self-love no matter how twisted it may get.

Self-hate is self-love in disguise because you wouldn't hate yourself for your failures if you didn't love yourself so much you couldn't stand having the flaws that cause the self-hate.

Humility, true humility, as opposed to self-love /self-hate, would accept all the flaws and the failures without getting all depressed about them. And in that attitude there may be a really healthy self-love.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Omnivorous, posted 08-31-2006 4:50 PM Omnivorous has replied

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 307 (345532)
08-31-2006 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Faith
08-31-2006 7:11 PM


I don't see how to get around the fact that every one of us is full of self-love no matter how twisted it may get. Self-hate is self-love in disguise because you wouldn't hate yourself for your failures if you didn't love yourself so much you couldn't stand having the flaws that cause the self-hate. Humility, true humility, as opposed to self-love /self-hate, would accept all the flaws and the failures without getting all depressed about them. And in that attitude there may be a really healthy self-love.

Heh, good post. I guess one could ask themself if the self-depricating type are really expressing their self-loathing or are they just fishing for compliments?

Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typo


“"All science, even the divine science, is a sublime detective story. Only it is not set to detect why a man is dead; but the darker secret of why he is alive." —G. K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
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