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Author Topic:   jar - On Christianity
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2918 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 41 of 307 (344358)
08-28-2006 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Cold Foreign Object
08-28-2006 3:10 PM


Re: Questions
Herepton asked:

What is the central message of the Bible?

Jar answered in the words of Yeshua:

Love GOD and love others as you love yourself.

Herepton quoted only the first part the statement--

Love GOD....

--then asked:

How do you love Someone who is invisible and cannot be touched ?

It is interesting that Herepton edited the statement before asking the question.

'Love God, and love others as you love yourself.' Yeshua and his followers always taught that the second part of that statement has everything to do with the first part. Herepton removed the words that answered the question before asking it.

Those who say, ‘I love God’, and hate their brothers or sisters, are liars; for those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not seen.

1 John 4.20 NRSV


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-28-2006 3:10 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 08-28-2006 5:06 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2918 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 47 of 307 (344432)
08-28-2006 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by robinrohan
08-28-2006 7:10 PM


Re: philadelphia
robinrohan:

I don't there's anything in the Bible about how we need to learn to love ourselves. That sounds very unBiblical to me.

We have the statement 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'

A certain amount of self-love is understood.

Without it, no one is loved at all.

Edited by Archer Opterix, : Concision.

Edited by Archer Opterix, : Restored original wording to match quote.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by robinrohan, posted 08-28-2006 7:10 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by robinrohan, posted 08-28-2006 7:44 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied
 Message 49 by jar, posted 08-28-2006 7:54 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2918 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 55 of 307 (344508)
08-28-2006 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by GDR
08-28-2006 10:07 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
GDR wrote.

It was a response to a "teacher of the law" who was asking which was the most important of the laws as presented in Jewish scripture. Christ's teachings went beyond what was written in the OT.

You're suggesting this summation was incomplete in some way. I don't see how. Everything in Christ's teachings expresses the same categories--loving God or loving others.

It's an excellent summation.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by GDR, posted 08-28-2006 10:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 1:15 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2918 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 133 of 307 (344950)
08-30-2006 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by GDR
08-30-2006 12:46 AM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
GDR wrote:

It happened or it didn't. It's the truth or it's a lie.

Was Jesus' name Emmanuel?
If you look into it, I think you'll find his name was Jesus.

It either happened or it didn't. It's the truth or it's a lie.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by GDR, posted 08-30-2006 12:46 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by GDR, posted 08-30-2006 1:56 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2918 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 138 of 307 (344962)
08-30-2006 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by GDR
08-30-2006 1:56 AM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
GDR:

I don't get your point. Emmanuel simply means "God with us" Same thing as calling Jesus "Son of God".

Look at you. Suddenly you want Bible authors to use artistic license.

But artistic license is the thing you deny. You have been insisting that Bible statements about Jesus are literal fact. Otherwise they are false. There is no other choice.

You have made youself very clear about this.

You insist that Bible statements be literal. So let's get literal.

The issue is not what the name Emmanuel means. The issue is what Jesus' name was.

Isaiah says 'and they will call his name Emmanuel.'

Now--for $64,000 and that round trip for 2 to the Promised Land--what was Jesus' name?

Edited by Archer Opterix, : No reason given.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by GDR, posted 08-30-2006 1:56 AM GDR has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2918 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 140 of 307 (344983)
08-30-2006 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by robinrohan
08-27-2006 12:33 AM


fanfare for the common man
robinrohan:

Jar is no freak. His ideas are commonplace.

Not common enough, I'd say.

And Ringo's my new hero.

Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by robinrohan, posted 08-27-2006 12:33 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by robinrohan, posted 08-30-2006 8:16 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2918 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 187 of 307 (345307)
08-31-2006 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Faith
08-30-2006 9:58 PM


Faith argues 'apparent sanity' of some Christians
Faith writes:

And how do you account for the apparent sanity and realism of so many who follow Him? You quote some of them with appreciation, such as Samuel Johnson, Jonathan Edwards, William Law, Pascal. And in fact all of these believed in the whole supernatural package.

How do you account for the duration of His influence if He was deluded -- people believing in Him by growing millions in every generation for the last 2000 years, and even in our modern times in which the majority have rejected the very idea of the supernatural?

How do you account for the millions who have been and still are persecuted and even killed for believing him Him in Asia and Africa and the Middle East, refusing to repudiate their faith even for the sake of saving their lives?

I guess a sizeable portion of the world is deluded.

Well, that's OK, He told us that's how we would be viewed.

God save us from reheated Josh MacDowell garnished with sprigs of persecution complex.

By this logic all world religions are true, because all of them boast sane followers and great thinkers.

How many people here think Faith accepts all world religions as valid?


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 08-30-2006 9:58 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by kuresu, posted 08-31-2006 12:06 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2918 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 222 of 307 (345497)
08-31-2006 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by jar
08-31-2006 11:42 AM


Re: Questions
jar writes:

It really is that simple, but it is not easy to do.

Jewish and Christian theologians have long recognized the worth of 'the greatest commandment.'

Loving God and loving others as yourself is the work of a lifetime.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by jar, posted 08-31-2006 11:42 AM jar has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2918 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 229 of 307 (345571)
08-31-2006 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by iano
08-31-2006 10:25 AM


a world of possibilities
Iano wrote:

Might I be so presumptious as to suggest you find a resting place with those who say they find their rest in him. That of all worldviews (bar nihilism), Christianity strikes you as most reasonable - the only problem being you can't see it?

God pulls people to him by eliminating all other possibilities (in my own experience)

I missed the part where the other worldviews were discussed and eliminated.

This is remarkable, considering most of the arguments being made on behalf of Christianity by you and Faith in this thread could be made of any world belief with barely a word changed. Meaning to life, check. Reputable adherents, check. Aesthetic appeal, check.

You are arguing for the importance of having a belief system. You do not argue for Christianity. You assume Christianity.

How many other possibilities have you really considered?


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by iano, posted 08-31-2006 10:25 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Faith, posted 09-01-2006 12:11 AM Archer Opteryx has replied
 Message 231 by iano, posted 09-01-2006 5:36 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2918 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 242 of 307 (345725)
09-01-2006 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Faith
09-01-2006 12:11 AM


Re: a world of possibilities
Faith:

You are ignoring the context of our comments, which is Robin's strong attraction to some quintessentially Christian writings, including some of the Bible, especially the book of Ecclesiastes, and four of the most famous and orthodox greats in Christian history.

Ecclesiastes is a great book. One of my favorites, too.

But it is demonstrably not a 'quintessentially Christian writing.' It is a quintessentially Jewish writing. Its author was not a Christian. Its author had never heard of Christianity.

The book was accepted as part of the Hebrew canon centuries before that came to be incorporated into the canons of Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant Christian churches.

Yeshua was not a Christian, either. Logically speaking, people who truly intend to be 'like Christ' should convert to Judaism.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Faith, posted 09-01-2006 12:11 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 1:18 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied
 Message 264 by Faith, posted 09-01-2006 5:54 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2918 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 245 of 307 (345741)
09-01-2006 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by robinrohan
09-01-2006 8:06 AM


Re: World views
robinrohan writes:

1. Eastern religions--they seem rather vague to me. The doctrines are going to have be clear, distinct and definite in order for me to have any truck with it. They mention the way to nirvana is to lose one's desire for whatever, but don't explain how this wicked desire came about in the first place.

You are talking about Buddhism with your mention of Nirvana. But your demand that Buddhism give you 'clear, distinct and definite doctrines' and an explanation of 'wickedness' is asking for a Western product from the outset.

Eastern ideas seem vague to you at the moment because, most likely, you lack a sufficient vocabulary to render them. It's like using the language of computer science to describe astronomy. Square pegs and round holes and all that. The concepts of anything remain elusive to us if we have to translate them into inadequate and biased terms.

4. nihilism (my belief)--a logical extension of atheism. Fits with evolution, fits with the apparently accidental nature of life. No very cogent explanation of moral feelings and uncertainty about how "consciousness" might have arisen.

This is very interesting. Before you insisted on 'clear, distinct and definite doctrines.' Now you say you like ambiguity.

Nihilism is convincing to you because it offers 'uncertainty' and 'no very cogent explanation.' You find it credible because it does not try to explain everything. The impression I take from that is that you like its humility. It does not claim to know more than it can know. It leaves room for mystery and discovery.

But within the mysteries of nihilism you still have room for precision and clarity, don't you? You have science.

How do you understand these two poles: your desire for clarity and the desire for mystery? Do you see them as something you must choose between? As something you can synthesize, perhaps as you are doing with science and nihilism? What do you think?


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 8:06 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 2:14 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2918 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 256 of 307 (345777)
09-01-2006 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by robinrohan
09-01-2006 2:14 PM


Re: World views
Thanks for the clarification, robin. I was trying to be fair and stay with your statement as much as possible.

The idea of nihilism is pretty definite. There is no God; life has no purpose. There's nothing particularly humble about nihilism.

Understood.

I have no desire for mystery. Now, it is true, mystery has a romantic aesthetic value, but that's not important here.

Aesthetics, schmaesthetics. Mystery is a fact.

Unless you expect to answer every riddle of existence in the brief time you have on this planet--is that realistic?--mystery is something you're stuck with. Lack of 'desire' for unanswered questions does not change this.

If you want to account for all the facts, you have to account for the fact that you will never acquire all the facts. A certain amount of mystery is a given.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 2:14 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 3:28 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2918 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 258 of 307 (345781)
09-01-2006 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by robinrohan
09-01-2006 3:28 PM


Re: World views
robinronhan:

Didn't you say something in another thread about religion being an art?

Of course. But I am not discussing art with you. You are not interested in art. You use the word 'aesthetics' dismissively.

You like facts. So I am discussing facts.

Mystery remains as a fact you have to account for. It is a fact of your existence--unless you realistically expect to acquire all the answers in one short lifetime.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 3:28 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 11:16 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2918 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 260 of 307 (345784)
09-01-2006 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by jar
08-31-2006 11:42 AM


Re: Questions
Did I understand you to say, jar, that you are CoE?

If so, you keep some good company. TS Eliot and CS Lewis, Purcell and Holst, Queen Elizabeth and George Washington... a long list. Two of the most influential works in English literature--the King James Bible and the Book of Common Prayer--come to us from the Anglicans.

Would you say this rich tradition has affected your outlook in any way? If so, how?


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by jar, posted 08-31-2006 11:42 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by jar, posted 09-01-2006 4:37 PM Archer Opteryx has replied
 Message 273 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 11:34 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2918 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 262 of 307 (345793)
09-01-2006 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by jar
09-01-2006 4:37 PM


Re: Questions
If you don't mind, jar, I'd be interested in knowing more about that moment when you realized not everybody's religion involved the atmosphere of healthy questioning you were used to. Care to share?

Was there a statement that stands out in your mind? Any deja vu when you read posts here?


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by jar, posted 09-01-2006 4:37 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by jar, posted 09-01-2006 5:24 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied
 Message 283 by jar, posted 09-02-2006 12:03 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied
 Message 284 by robinrohan, posted 09-02-2006 11:33 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

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