True Freedom

What I'd really like are the answers to the questions I and others have raised.So far, moo has pretty much ignored them.Like, who made his guitar?And, why does he want to go to California with is guitar. Like, why California, specifically?Wouldn't it be more in line with his philosophy to go to North Dakota, or maybe the northern Canadian wilderness?You know, so he can be completely outside "the system" and therefore uncorrupted by the contamination of capitalism.

Ah, be careful how you throw that word around - it can come back to haunt you...Les bourgeois, Jacques Brel Live performance (in French, with Flemish subtitles )

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'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang

And from one of my favorite philosophy groups, SNZ

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Define "true purpose".

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In response, an essay I wrote this year in a French language/history/philosophy class at my high school on existentialism, and a very famous existentialist book "The Little Prince", this post is probably hit or miss.What Gives Value and Meaning to Things?**** We are born into a world that we know nothing about, that is a mystery to us. We know only from what others have told us. We have no known purpose, and our lives fulfill no known meaning. We are, and that is all. We can think and understand and communicate, we can fulfill roles within society, we have free will, and we can do whatever a human being can do.But what gives value and meaning to what we decide to do is through every choice that we make. We decide what our purpose is. We make our destiny, we determine our fate. We give our lives purpose. As we are in what Albert Camus said this "absurd abyss of existence".The characters in the Petite Prince represented all of the men on Earth. Some become businessmen, and spend their lives gaining wealth. This gives them purpose, but only in a superficial way, it is ultimately a meaningless existence because what one can gain in material wealth is gone when we die.Some give their lives meaning by studying the planet, the geographer, but is again meaningless because of the lack of anything important in the numbers and measurements of the Earth, that too is only temporary. Because when we die nothing will remain besides our spirit and God.The man who studies mathematics is similarly leading a life without true purpose. Because the laws of the Earth, and measuring tools and numbers devised will not be important at death. This is a purpose of sophistication, and genius, but no genius would spend time discussing mathematical values, true genius' have discovered why we are here, and how we got here, the meaning of life. Those who seek truth, seek answers to questions that of which the scientists and mathematicians can only give up and reply that they are dealing with matters of consequence.Most humans deal with matters of consequence, most humans do not give thought to what is really important or true, most "go with the flow", and live lives simply to live, and become a part of a system that they blindly accept called society, and take jobs to be accepted, and make money to be "happy", but happiness has nothing to do with money, happiness is when the Buddha smiled into the river, and transcended what was real. That is true happiness, but most humans/adults may laugh at truth, and they may simply walk away thinking about tomorrow, or their job.The Tippler is a strange character who is harder to see within daily life. He drinks to forget that he is ashamed of drinking. It is a sad state, and I do not know many tipplers. But I think that the point Exuperie was trying to make was that people are so saddened by this world and lacking a definable purpose, and being born into something they know nothing about, that they try to forget it, and they spend their lives living as the tippler. Almost denying purpose, and denying life because it saddens them. This is the person that I think the tippler represents. One who tragically tries to forget that he is alive. This is not a viable purpose, because one cannot live as a tippler and have purpose, or do anything good for anyone.The lamplighter was a landmark character, because the lamplighter was the first person that fulfilled a purpose that pleased the Prince, and was not selfish, was not meaningless. Because it served a righteous cause. He lived for others, and he lived to serve. The Prince called it "beautiful".But believing in something, and giving a purpose to one's life through actions and choices is not the only way one can give life meaning. As in the story, the fox meeting the Prince shows another correlation to the question. That our relationships as humans are vastly important, and that these instances that go beyond everyday interaction, to heartfelt love for one another, true friendship, gives meaning and fulfillment in life. As the fox was tamed we are tamed by everyone who has ever become a friend to you. The Prince took the time to care for the flower and although there are millions of flowers that were identical, she is important and unique and special to him because she is one in all the world that loved him, and who he loved. Just as the rose is a million times the same, so are we, we are 1 in 6 billion, the only way to be truly special is to be tamed. And that is so amazing.So the question is why would God create us if we are seemingly in an absurd abyss, and we don't know why, I have a feeling that is has a lot to do with the relationships that we have, and the purpose and value that we as individuals can give to our lives. Life is not without meaning, and every single one of us determines that. *****And for the guitar part. I want to be like Hendrix or Frusciante, that sums it up. California would be the place to go from what I've read. Edited by AdminAsgara, : edited name out at owner's request

but I think the discussion has strayed from the topic a bit: it certainly has generated a discussion - good topics are like that.I just got in from kayaking along Narragansett Bay and I was thinking about your essay while I was out there, close to freedom, one with the waves.There was a dock with a {No Trespassing} sign: what is trespassing? A wall erected to keep the "owner" inside, a prisoner of his possesion?The amer-indians, like most hunting\gathering societies, had no such need for ownership of property, and while they were over-run by the possesion possessed europeans, they also left some philosophical nuggets for others to pick up ... some of them contributing to the philosophical foundations of this country. Forgotten Founders if you will.I'm a bit of a Thoreau back when it comes to things like this.Two years ago (has it really been that long?) I packed my kayak on top of my van, my mountain bike inside, and a bunch of camping gear ... and went looking for work in the New England states. I was between jobs and decided to look where I wanted to live rather than where I was.My van became my cabin in the woods, and like Thoreau I kept in contact with friends and family and bits of society (I know where a lot of free wifi spots are in 4 states too ... yes I took my laptop)I found places I could camp free, places to clean up, places to enjoy just being in.It was great. ... and Gandhi and Thoreau and others. This is the teaching of buddhism yes?People are owned by their possessions ... True, nobody ever became famous or even well known by who they voted for or what they bought.But everything is also a choice: I used to teach kids to canoe, and one of the lessons\concepts I used was that everytime the paddle was in the water they were steering the canoe.It didn't matter if they were in the bow or the stern, whether they were consciously trying to steer or not, just by being in the canoe with a blade in the water they were affecting the course of the canoe.Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

The existentialist canoeing instructor. That is one of the great contributions of existentialist thought to Western philosophy: choice is inescapable. Even if you do nothing, that is a choice.Another is that who you are is only determined after all your choices are made: existence precedes essence, but our essence is only completely defined when our existence ends.But you must choose.As Dante understood, long before philosophers codified the notion, we are what we have done.Years ago, my youngest son played center for his Pop Warner football team. He, like me, was physically precocious and had reached his adult size by age 12. The team was fortunate to have a gifted quarterback and running back who were similarly precocious and athletically gifted. They went undefeated and were soon positioned to play for the regional championship.Due to his height and not his heft, he always struggled to keep his weight within league limits, and, in the days leading up to the game, I cautioned him against over-indulging.He didn't listen.The day of the game, he was disqualified due to weight. They played hard--but without him they were not the same team, and they lost by a touchdown.On the way home, after long, quiet miles, he turned to me and said, "I'll always be the guy that let the team down.""Yeah," I replied, "you will.""But it's up to you to decide what that means. You don't have to be the guy that always lets the team down. Everybody makes mistakes; everybody lets the team down. But not everybody learns from that mistake. You can be the guy that learned never to let the team down."

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messenjah: I never defended conformity. I mentioned the need to strike a bargain with the universe.No reason your contract has to look the same as anyone else's. Not at all.But you will have to negotiate terms.No avoiding that part, I'm afraid.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

it's quite laughable how you talk about confirmity and then quote Jesus.

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I will not judge your intellect from your posts here but I find the defense of conformity usually attributed to those that are easily manipulated.

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I find actions count for more than words - let's see how much you confirm and therefore plug into the system.1) Do you live with or without money?2) If you live with money, where does it come from?3) Do you make your own clothes?4) Do you provide your own healthcare?5) Do you go to an organized church or pray on your own to the New Gods in your garden?Practice what you preach.

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This discrimination because of Prophex's age is bothersome

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I mentioned this before but it's worth repeating - I'm guess most of us find prophex's comments funny more than anything. They represent a innocence about the world that we all had but don't anymore and we find it funny because it reflects (for many of us) how we were at a similar age.Edited by CK, : No reason given.Edited by CK, : No reason given.

i find it sad , that is what is clearly a quite bright mind has not been able to see beyond the wish forfilling myths of freedom , phillosophy and the other mind games the "great thinker" play .Its also sad that someone who has had so much " freedom " in his youth has not used a small part of it explored the reality of the world in which he lives .clearly he has
1. never had to live with out money because he has none or no one to give him some
2. he has never had to work to 12 days to earn enough money for one poor meal
3.he has never hunted rubbish heaps for rags to wear .
4.he has never suffered alone
5.he demands of god his own vision and purpose , with no need to conform ore follow .is all this ultra harsh ... i think not if one can spend time debating Kant or whoever is this weeks topics flavour , can spend time working out where best to move to to be a music super star , then one can look at the places in this world where it is ugly and mean and people struggle to survive with out the time to consider the bright shinning theroies on the purpose of life ..who makes the greater contribution to your life ... the man who spend 30 years thinking about the purpose of life then writes a book that needs you to study the last 200 years of thought to be able to understand what it is trying to say ....or the man who comes around with a big truck and takes away your household rubish once a week . ?

brits and their pragmatism.
mayhaps that was the secret to your all's success as an empire?

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All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

You must realize I defended my stance on this exact point with excerpts and a critique from Jean-Paul Sartre. In response to my post you only responded to a brief musing of mine made by Kierkegaard. I did not appreciate this because I was merely quotin a poetic sentence, you critiqued liek it was a view. You went on to ignore the scholarly content of my post, perhaps because you have no knowledge of Sartre or anyone worth mentioning.In a post following this(within next two) I will issue a defense against a critique of Kantian ethics made by Sartre in ExistentialismRead some of the names on kuresu's reading list, which I will query what works he has read on Kant.I suggest you look up Kant and please read this:You assert that I want everyone to do as I say. Being able to have everyone do as I do is the mark of a sound philosophy.Jean-Paul Sartre speaks of this very thing in his work Existentialism (his first major work translated into english):

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If on the otherhand, existence precedes essence, and if we grant that we exist and fashion our image at one and the same time, the image is valid for everybody and for our whole age. Thus, our responsibility is much greater than we might have supposed, because it involves all mankind. If I am a workingman and choose to join a Christian trade-union rather than be a communist, and if by being a member I want to show that the best thing for man is resignation, that the kingdom of man is not of this world, I am not only involving my own case-I want ot be resigned for everyone. As a result, my action has involved all of humanity.

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he continues later on

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But really, one should always ask himself, "What would happen if everybody looked at things that way?"

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Edited by -messenjah of one, : No reason given.Edited by -messenjah of one, : No reason given.

Forgive me,
I'm not interestd in such trite.When I quoted Christ it was for another reason and meaning then how it has been interpreted, and no I don't have time to tell you what i mean't.

Dear Archer, **edit:I meant to say Kuresu,**What exactly have you read of Kant? Or Descartes? "the nice guy" empiricist Hume?Just wondering.Mainly interested in what you've read by Kant, my next post is why.Edited by -messenjah of one, : So kuresu when you see this replyEdited by -messenjah of one, : double sentence

messenjah: Who called Hume a "nice guy"?

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Well,

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion