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Author Topic:   jar - On Christianity
GDR
Member (Idle past 270 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 147 of 307 (345060)
08-30-2006 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by jar
08-30-2006 10:53 AM


Prophecy and the Crucifixion
jar writes:

What Jesus said on the cross, IMHO probably quotemined but Jesus would also have been very familar with Psalm 22 and so it is not unreasonable that He said that or something similar.

I would agree. As a matter of fact I've always thought that Jesus said that on the cross in order to make the connection between what was happening then and what had been foretold in the OT.

jar writes:

Doesn't sound to me like any foretelling and certainly not like the crucifixion of Jesus.
I have never said that they were lying. I don't doubt that they believe they saw parallels, but I don't. Jesus bones were not out of joint, he was not surrounded by dogs, his hands were not pierced

I'm not a medical person but it is my understanding that bones do come out of joint under those circumstances. His mouth was certainly dry as it even tells about in the Biblical account. His hands and feet being pierced sounds awfully close. (I know it was his wrists but my understanding is that the original language can be translated either way.) As for the dogs let's just call it metaphor, I don't really know. That quote from Psalm 22 sure creates a picture very much like the crucifixion, and as I mentioned Jesus even quoted from it on the cross which indicates that He certainly saw the connection.

As far as the map is concerned I agree that there are other maps than the Bible or even Christianity. I do believe however that the idea of having a map is to get to a destination and that destination is Jesus.I think that Christianity provides the clearest map and that the Bible gives us the clearest route to the destination.

Having said that I also believe that God has written on the hearts of everyone, (as Paul writes about in Romans), a map that leads to the destination. Other faiths that teach as an underlying principle the concept of love of others can be used as a map.

I do believe that Psalm 22 is prophetic. Is it perfectly so -- no. I have no doubt that the writers of the Gospels saw the connection between the crucifixion and Psalm 22, and that they would be sure to include the details that paralleled Psalm 22, but that is not the same thing as attributing to the Gospel account something that wasn't said or didn't occur.

jar writes:


This is quite different from other cases. For example the prophecy about Tyre when compared to the Territory is simply wrong. There we do have clear references that can be checked. Here though it is more a question of "what were the beliefs of the various authors and what meaning do you draw from the Map?

To be honest I have never been all that concerned about Biblical prophesy in general as to how accurate their predictions were. In general I just accept that there is a reason that they are there whether they occurred as forecast or not. The Bible has to be read in total context and there are certainly cultural interests and ambiguities in the telling of God's interaction with his creation.

For myself I'm just trying to be what God wants me to be today, to ask for forgiveness for what is past and to seek His assistance to be more what He wants me to be tomorrow.

Edited by GDR, : Changed title


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by jar, posted 08-30-2006 10:53 AM jar has not replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 270 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 194 of 307 (345316)
08-31-2006 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
08-28-2006 5:06 PM


Re: Questions
jar writes:

IMHO the other thing that must be emphasized is that the Second Commandment is a two parter. Before you can love others you must first love yourself. Until you can honestly handle that part, look at yourself, recognizing what you have done right, what you have done wrong, how you might do better, you cannot love others.

After the discussion on loving ourselves I just happened to be thumbing through "Christian Reflections" by C.S. Lewis and he had this to say on that:

C.S. Lewis writes:

You are told to love your neighbour as yourself. How do you love yourself? When I look into my own mind, I find that I do not love myself by thinking myself a dear old chap or having affectionate feelings. I do not think that I love myself because I am particularly good, but just because I am myself and quite apart from my character. I might detest something which I have done. Nevertheless, I do not cease to love myself. In other words, that definite distinction that Christians make between hating sin and loving the sinner is one that you have been making in your own case since you were born. You dislike what you have done but you don't cease to love yourself. You may even think that you ought to be hanged. You may even think that you ought to go to the police and own up and be hanged. Love is not an affectionate feeling, but a steady wish for the loved person's ultimate good as far as it can be obtained.

I don't think that it settles any difference that you and I have on the subject but it is an interesting perspective and probably something that we can both agree with.

Greg


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 08-28-2006 5:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by jar, posted 08-31-2006 10:59 AM GDR has not replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 270 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 240 of 307 (345710)
09-01-2006 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by robinrohan
09-01-2006 10:39 AM


Re: World views
robinrohan writes:

I'll stand by my logical objection to New Age Christianity having no explanation for the problem of suffering. Any religion worth its salt, in my view, has to attempt that. That's why I said it's not really a religion.

As an explanation from someone who considers himself a traditional Christian, (somewhere between jar and Faith), I have only the following explanation.

If there were no suffering then how could we experience joy? Without suffering joy would just be what is without any pleasure attached to it.

For example are we prepared to sacrifice the joy that we get in holding our new born in order to spare ourselves of the suffering that we experience in the loss of a loved one.

It's the same thing with good and evil, love and hate etc.

In our world it seems to me that joy is winning out over sorrow because the vast majority of us seem quite keen to hang on to life. :)

Edited by GDR, : editorial change


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 10:39 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 12:28 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 270 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 244 of 307 (345737)
09-01-2006 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by robinrohan
09-01-2006 12:28 PM


Re: World views
robinrohan writes:

Yes, without all those birth defects and deseases and accidents, in whihch innocents suffer and die, how on earth could we ever manage a smile?

Fine, but how about all those births that are normal? If it wasn't for sorrow then joy would be just like gravity. All we've ever known is positive gravity. It is just what is and we never think about it one way or the other. If there was no sorrow we would have no pleasure in joy. It would be just like gravity; just the way things are.

In addition as Christians we believe that this life is just a precursor to the next life. Why don't you wait 'till you get there before you criticize things too much? :)

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 12:28 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 2:18 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 270 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 250 of 307 (345760)
09-01-2006 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by robinrohan
09-01-2006 2:18 PM


Re: World views
robinrohan writes:

I'll stand by my logical objection to New Age Christianity having no explanation for the problem of suffering. Any religion worth its salt, in my view, has to attempt that. That's why I said it's not really a religion.

I in my humble fashion try and provide the explanation. Then you say:

robinrohan writes:

I'm not "criticizing." It would be rather foolish to criticize nature. I might as criticize the trees for losing their leaves in the fall, and I have to rake them up.

You were criticizing jar's version of Christianity for not having an explanation. I try to give you one and then you basically say it doesn't matter because you don't believe in God anyway.

One of the major objections that I hear from Atheists is the problem of a God who allows suffering. I have just provided my understanding of why we have suffering.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 2:18 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 2:49 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 270 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 252 of 307 (345767)
09-01-2006 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by robinrohan
09-01-2006 2:49 PM


Re: World views
robinrohan writes:

I think that's supposed to be the situation in heaven, if I'm not mistaken.

Why not reproduce that on earth?

I was hoping you wouldn't notice. :) I agree. Frankly I can understand why it exists here but I'm not sure how it cannot exist in the next world. I have to admit that for me it is part of the mystery of the next life and I take it on faith.

The only possible explanation that I have heard, and you can take it for what it's worth, is that we retain memory of this life so that we have an understanding of sorrow in the next life. The only other thought that I have had on it, is that there are varying degrees of joy to be experienced.

Obviously if we have eternal life there are no life threatening diseases, and no accidental deaths. Love will be all encompassing so there will be no crime or war. I guess it is a lot like life in the womb, we didn't have any understanding of what the next life would be then either. :) In the final analysis there are some things that we just won't learn until we get there.

Greg


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 2:49 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by jar, posted 09-01-2006 3:11 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 270 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 254 of 307 (345772)
09-01-2006 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by jar
09-01-2006 3:11 PM


Re: World views
jar writes:

Sounds really dull and boring. Sure hope it's not like that.

You're hoping there'll be death and destruction are you? :)

I think that we have to look at the things in this life that bring joy. As I understand things we still remain the same person but we just get a different mode of transportation that comes with an eternal guarantee.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by jar, posted 09-01-2006 3:11 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Quetzal, posted 09-01-2006 4:11 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 270 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 265 of 307 (345812)
09-01-2006 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Quetzal
09-01-2006 4:11 PM


Re: World views
Quetzal writes:

I think he's hoping that there will be beer and barbecues.

I think he's just hoping to be able to stay away from the fundie section, so that he can love himself in peace and quite. :)

Qyetzal writes:

I'm not sure I agree with your yin-yang philosophy you outlined previously, and that you have said you take on faith. It seems to boil down to statements like "There can be no light without darkness to give it form"; "There can be no good without evil for contrast"; etc. Why not?

It's a good question because like all things philosophical I'm looking for a spiritual truth with a physical brain.

I'll use your examples. Say for example that photons of light worked in such a way that light existed everywhere, whether it be in a sealed closet or in a coal mine. There wouldn't even be a word such as darkness let alone an understanding of what it would mean. As a matter of fact there would be no such word as light at least in the way we understand it.

If there were no such thing as evil then how could there be goodness? Goodness would just be what is and neither the word or the concept would exist. How would we be able to say that someone was a good (moral) person when there is no other way they could be? There would be no word for or understanding of evil because there would be no such thing.

When we are in the water we consider ourselves wet because it isn't the norm for us. What do we call ourselves when we are immersed in our atmosphere? We don't have a word for it because it is just the way things normally are.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Quetzal, posted 09-01-2006 4:11 PM Quetzal has not replied

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