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Author Topic:   The Uncertainty Principle - is it real?
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 48 (280921)
01-23-2006 11:33 AM


Easy, I hope.
The best way of explaining the uncertainty principle, at least in my opinion, is as follows.
Every Quantum Mechanical system is described by a function called the wavefunction, usually represented by the Greek letter "".
is a complex valued function, meaning it attaches a complex number to each point in space.
What is it a function of though?
Usually we make it either a function of position "x" or momentum "p".
So lets say we have a system which consists of only a single electron moving in a straight line.
We can write down its wavefunction a function of momentum "(p)" or as a function of position "(x)".
When we measure something's position to good accuracy, the wavefunction becomes very neat in terms of x. Which means "(x)" becomes very neat, peaking at the value for position you measured, with very little "trail off" into other values.
However "(p)" becomes very messy, trailing over many values of p.
When we measure momentum the opposite happens. "(p)" becomes neat and "(x)" becomes messy.
So the neater the wavefunction looks in one representation the messier it looks in another.
The uncertainty principle basically shows how the untidiness is spread between the two representations.

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 48 (281233)
01-24-2006 1:01 PM


It might look spiritual to you at the moment, but there isn't anything that spiritual about Hilbert Spaces, self-adjoint Hermitian operators and the various other things which go with Quantum Mechanics.
(Platonism aside, just in case somebody brings that up)
Quantum Mechanics doesn't say anything about matter not existing or being illusory. It simply gives a matter a different set of rules to the old classical ones, albeit rules that allow for a lot of weirdness.

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by randman, posted 01-24-2006 1:21 PM Son Goku has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 48 (281250)
01-24-2006 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by randman
01-24-2006 1:21 PM


Re: same old issue
In the QM picture, we see an inherent design as fundamental that gives rise to physical form, not the other way around.
What do you mean by inherent design?
Do you mean the mathematical rules of QM?
Classical Mechanics had a similar set of principles which lived "underneath" matter.

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 Message 24 by randman, posted 01-24-2006 1:21 PM randman has replied

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 Message 26 by randman, posted 01-24-2006 1:51 PM Son Goku has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 48 (281272)
01-24-2006 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by randman
01-24-2006 1:51 PM


Re: same old issue
When we say that it isn't defined we mean it is in what is called an eigenstate.
It's very different from the casual use of the word undefined.
You can't pull a word from a comment about quantum mechanics if you don't know the mathematics behind the theory.
But the materialist argument or the impression left with people is that these properties governing matter are actually something that occurs because the matter is there. In other words, the design does not exist without the matter. The physical form is not derived from the design except maybe going back to the beginning of the Big Bang and then it is murky.
But in QM, the design gives rise to the present physical form, always.
State exactly what you mean by design, so that I can accurately respond to this.
This message has been edited by Son Goku, 01-24-2006 02:17 PM

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 Message 26 by randman, posted 01-24-2006 1:51 PM randman has replied

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 Message 28 by randman, posted 01-24-2006 2:26 PM Son Goku has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 48 (281280)
01-24-2006 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by randman
01-24-2006 2:26 PM


Re: same old issue
There is a possibility state for observable quantities. The set of possibilities for the observable quantities is the physical form at the quantum level.
There is the wavefunction, this is the state of the particle, its form if you will. The wavefunction can be used to figure out the probabilities of measuring some value for some quantity or more accurately the chance of the electron jumping to another wavefunction associated with that quantity.
The "physical form" at the quantum level is the wavefunction. There just so happens to be wavefunctions which are "in one place" or have a definite energy, like the classical things we are used to, but they're no more physical or possessed of form than other wavefunctions.

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 Message 28 by randman, posted 01-24-2006 2:26 PM randman has replied

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 Message 30 by randman, posted 01-24-2006 2:46 PM Son Goku has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 48 (281288)
01-24-2006 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by randman
01-24-2006 2:46 PM


Re: same old issue
Yes, measurement causes the wavefunction to take a discrete form in layman's terms. However a wavefunction with a discrete form isn't anything special or amazing, it just resembles the classical world a bit more than a generic one. There are also no completely discrete wavefunctions. The electron will always be spread over a couple of positions. Measurement just tightens the spread.
There is just one note:
Measurement doesn't require a conscious being. There are systems were no human is involved and measurement occurs.

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 Message 30 by randman, posted 01-24-2006 2:46 PM randman has replied

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Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 48 (281368)
01-24-2006 9:29 PM


But Wheeler and some others claim it not mere measurement in delayed-choice experiments, but rather observation or even the potential to be observed, correct?
The way I have heard it is that some physicists thought it was the intrusive act of measuring that caused the wave function to collapse, so to speak, but that the delayed-choice experiments showed that this was not the case, and that the mere potential for observation caused the collapse.
You're referencing Parametric down-converter experiments or the Vaidmann bomb, or at least they demonstrate what you're talking about.
This would take a quite a while to explain and to be fair I don't think I would do it any justice. I might attempt it eventually if I manage to come up with a decent way to explain it.
Essentially what you are saying is factually correct. However what "mere potential for observation" means in this circumstance is far from obvious. It took me a while to take it in when I first read about it and nearly drove me mad for a week.
It is undoubtedly the weirdest thing in quantum mechanics. Even now I can look at it and think "Okay, what the hell is going on there?".
I'll try my best to think of a half decent demonstration, although it might be a lengthy post, I wouldn't like to leave you hanging on this because you're obviously interested, I just don't know if my explanatory powers are up to it.*
Hopefully I'll be back with a response soon.
(*Its very hard to word it in a way which doesn't presume a serious understanding of the wavefunction)

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Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 48 (345345)
08-31-2006 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by nipok
08-31-2006 2:48 AM


Re: SMOKE AND MIRRORS / Uncertainty and Normalization are FUDGEs
The reality is that we can't see or measure everything in real-time/real-space due to the relativity between us and that which we observe. If however time could be slowed down RELATIVE to that which we are trying to observe and distance/space could be measured in increments RELATIVE to that which we are observing then it would seem common sense that the Uncertainty Principle is a farce and it is being used as a crutch to fit what we see and record to better match what we expect.
The Uncertainty principle was predicted by Heisenberg before it was detected, but a lot of people honestly didn't expect to see it in experiment. It was predicted, then observed. So there isn't really any fudging.
A lot of experiments are performed in a particles rest frame, but that doesn't effect the uncertainty principle.
The Uncertainty Principle comes from the fact that for some measurable quantities a particle cannot be in a classically well defined state for both quantities at the same time.
Edited by Son Goku, : No reason given.
Edited by Son Goku, : No reason given.

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 Message 37 by nipok, posted 08-31-2006 2:48 AM nipok has replied

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 Message 39 by nipok, posted 08-31-2006 3:57 AM Son Goku has not replied
 Message 40 by nipok, posted 08-31-2006 5:07 AM Son Goku has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 48 (345461)
08-31-2006 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by nipok
08-31-2006 5:07 AM


Re: SMOKE AND MIRRORS / Uncertainty and Normalization are FUDGEs
But can you say (or anyone say) with any degree of certainty that this is not due to our inability to observe an event with sufficient scientific precision?
What do you think the Hiesenberg Uncertainty Principle says?
Nor is that any validation of Heisenbergs’s predictive ability to events that he expected our scientific precision to be capable of observing.
Heisenberg didn't make any assumptions about our limits of observation. The uncertainty principle is simply a statement about non-commuting observables.
A well defined state of one is not a well defined state of another.
If |x> is a state of definite position then:
|x> = c1|p1> + c2|p2> + c3|p3> +..........
Where the p states are states of definite momentum and the c's are constants.
Using this you can show that measurements of momentum and position have a certain standard deviation. The standard deviation predicted is the standard deviation observed.
Where is there any proof that these are not due to fallacies of the underling foundation and build upon each other like Band-Aids.
The fact that they work.
Where is there any proof that these are due to fallacies of the underling foundation and build upon each other like Band-Aids?
It all boils down to our inability to record or observe an event within a sufficient relative time frame and distance to have meaning. All of quantum mechanics builds further and further upon these assumptions.
Upon what assumptions?
To assume that because we can't detect smaller particles than those that we can detect that they do not exist
Who does this?
You should also understand that a particles size has very little to do with how detectable it is. What is more crucial to this, is its lifetime and the energy scale required to create it.
Look back at the history of particle physics and quantum mechanics and really, where have we come in 50 years.
Quantum Electrodynamics, Quantum Chromodynamics, ElectroWeak Theory and the Standard Model, as well as a much greater ability to manipulate the quantum field theory formalism.
but so much of the real physics relies on estimations and acceptance of that which we think can never be measured.
It does? Where exactly is this acceptance of what can't be measured present and how does it effect the theory's results.
Edited by Son Goku, : Placing emphasis.
Edited by Son Goku, : No reason given.
Edited by Son Goku, : My crap spelling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by nipok, posted 08-31-2006 5:07 AM nipok has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by nipok, posted 08-31-2006 9:27 PM Son Goku has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 48 (345780)
09-01-2006 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by nipok
08-31-2006 9:27 PM


Examples Please.
From 1960 forward, yes we have made significant progress and discovered new particles and expanded the standard model but the number of significant theories and discoveries are less and more of what has occurred in the last 50 years were because we tried to fit our observations into the existing model making a blind assumption that the model must have a solid foundation.
Where and when has this happened? In the formulation of what theory? I can think of a few examples over the past 50 years, but none of them are from particle physics.
The Standard Model has been working for thirty years with no data against it thus far.
We all know that there are holes in the model which is why the constructs I mention in this thread were created.
What constructs were created in response to what holes?
Can you please provide examples?
In a quick nutshell the principle claims that we cannot with any certainty determine both the position and momentum of a particle somewhat because of its dual state as both a particle and a wave. And it most certainly makes a huge assumption about our limits of observation. He may not have said it directly but it’s easy to decipher between the lines that it is the limits of our current scientific precision that cause this inability to perform an accurate observation. Our need to interact or disturb a state in order to make an observation is due to our inability to record energy, mass, velocity, angular momentum, distance, and time on a scale ten thousand times smaller than a lepton or boson.
I don't mean to sound abrasive, but this is entirely incorrect. The uncertainty principle states that noncommuting observables don't have simultaneous eigenstates, which leads to a minimum in the product of their standard deviations.
It has nothing to with us disturbing something or leaving it unaffected during our measurement.
In the example of position and momentum, if you have a single position you are in superposition of multiple momentum and vice versa.
To use lax language, think of a particle having a position wave function and a momentum wavefunction, the more collapsed one is the more uncollapsed the other is.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by nipok, posted 09-06-2006 12:21 AM Son Goku has not replied
 Message 45 by nipok, posted 09-06-2006 1:58 AM Son Goku has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 48 (346970)
09-06-2006 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by nipok
09-06-2006 1:58 AM


Re: Examples Please.
The universe is made up an infinite number of polar coordinates with an infinite number of centers. Some could be a center of mass, others a center of density, others a center of energy, and still others I suppose although I am not sure how to visualize it a center of time.
How does this idea explain the fact that the gyromagnetic ratio for spin is roughly twice as big as for orbital angular momentum?
How does it explain the production of hadrons by e-e+ annihilation?
Name some predictions of your theory and how they differ from the Standard Model or General Relativity.
Edited by Son Goku, : Inserting a few words here and there.

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 Message 45 by nipok, posted 09-06-2006 1:58 AM nipok has replied

Replies to this message:
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