Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 66 (9078 total)
106 online now:
Tangle (1 member, 105 visitors)
Newest Member: harveyspecter
Post Volume: Total: 895,132 Year: 6,244/6,534 Month: 437/650 Week: 207/278 Day: 3/44 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   jar - On Christianity
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 241 of 307 (345716)
09-01-2006 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by GDR
09-01-2006 12:02 PM


Re: World views
If there were no suffering then how could we experience joy?

Yes, without all those birth defects and deseases and accidents, in which innocents suffer and die, how on earth could we ever manage a smile?

Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by GDR, posted 09-01-2006 12:02 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by GDR, posted 09-01-2006 1:27 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 243 of 307 (345735)
09-01-2006 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Archer Opteryx
09-01-2006 12:55 PM


Re: a world of possibilities
Ecclesiastes is a great book. One of my favorites, too.

Also, controversial down through the years.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-01-2006 12:55 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 247 of 307 (345754)
09-01-2006 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Archer Opteryx
09-01-2006 1:33 PM


Re: World views
Nihilism is convincing to you because it offers 'uncertainty' and 'no very cogent explanation.' You find it credible because it does not try to explain everything. The impression I take from that is that you like its humility. It does not claim to know more than it can know. It leaves room for mystery and discovery.

Not what I meant. I was writing in a sort of shorthand style and did not provide clear transitions. What I meant was our moral feelings and the evolution of consciousness are problems for me as regards evolution. I don't "like" these question marks.

The impression I take from that is that you like its humility. It does not claim to know more than it can know. It leaves room for mystery and discovery.

The idea of nihilism is pretty definite. There is no God; life has no purpose. There's nothing particularly humble about nihilism.

How do you understand these two poles: your desire for clarity and the desire for mystery?

I have no desire for mystery. Now, it is true, mystery has a romantic aesthetic value, but that's not important here.

Eastern ideas seem vague to you at the moment because, most likely, you lack a sufficient vocabulary to render them

That may be. If they are clear to you, in a way that can be discursively explained, let me know.

Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-01-2006 1:33 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-01-2006 3:22 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 248 of 307 (345756)
09-01-2006 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by GDR
09-01-2006 1:27 PM


Re: World views
Why don't you wait 'till you get there before you criticize things too much?

I'm not "criticizing." It would be rather foolish to criticize nature. I might as criticize the trees for losing their leaves in the fall, and I have to rake them up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by GDR, posted 09-01-2006 1:27 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by GDR, posted 09-01-2006 2:44 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 249 of 307 (345757)
09-01-2006 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by ringo
09-01-2006 1:47 PM


Re: The"Me" Decade
Why is it that a thread entitled "jar - On Cristianity" turns into "How does that effect me - robinrohan?"

Self-absorbed egotism, probably.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 09-01-2006 1:47 PM ringo has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 251 of 307 (345762)
09-01-2006 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by GDR
09-01-2006 2:44 PM


Re: World views
You were criticizing jar's version of Christianity for not having an explanation.

Oh, I thought you meant I was criticizing the fact that there are such phenomena as birth defects.

I don't think your explanation of "if no sorrow, no joy" is a very good one. I don't see any reason why the Almighty could not produce a situation in which we can have joy without sorrow. I think that's supposed to be the situation in heaven, if I'm not mistaken.

Why not reproduce that on earth?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by GDR, posted 09-01-2006 2:44 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by GDR, posted 09-01-2006 3:02 PM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 257 of 307 (345778)
09-01-2006 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Archer Opteryx
09-01-2006 3:22 PM


Re: World views
Aesthetics, schmaesthetics.

Didn't you say something in another thread about religion being an art?

Mystery is a fact.

Well, yes, in the sense that I am not certain in my beliefs. They are tentative. But you were suggesting that I was embracing mystery, that I really liked it. I'm not embracing it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-01-2006 3:22 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-01-2006 4:03 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 271 of 307 (345900)
09-01-2006 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Archer Opteryx
09-01-2006 4:03 PM


Re: World views
You use the word 'aesthetics' dismissively

By no means. An aesthete and a nihilist are the same creature.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-01-2006 4:03 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 273 of 307 (345906)
09-01-2006 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Archer Opteryx
09-01-2006 4:12 PM


Re: Questions
Would you say this rich tradition has affected your outlook in any way? If so, how?

Jar knows nothing about the tradition of which you speak.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-01-2006 4:12 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 284 of 307 (346144)
09-02-2006 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Archer Opteryx
09-01-2006 4:57 PM


Re: Questions
I'd be interested in knowing more about that moment when you realized not everybody's religion involved the atmosphere of healthy questioning you were used to

I haven't seen too much "healthy questioning" from Jar. What I have seen is a lot of politically correct ideas, learned apparently by rote, and pictures of baby birds and flowers.

That's "religion" according to Jar.

It's a far cry from what I know of the Anglican tradition. But I'm going by writers I have studied such as William Law, Samuel Johnson, and, in the 20th century, T. S. Eliot. These folks are rather severe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-01-2006 4:57 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by robinrohan, posted 09-02-2006 11:44 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 286 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-03-2006 6:24 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 290 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-03-2006 3:53 PM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 285 of 307 (346147)
09-02-2006 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by robinrohan
09-02-2006 11:33 PM


Re: Questions
Taking Eliot as an example, salvation "costs not less than everything."

One suffers to be saved. One takes up one's cross.

A condition of complete simplicity
(Costing not less than everything)
And all shall be well and
All manner of thing shall be well
When the tongues of flame are in-folded
Into the crowned knot of fire
And the fire [suffering] and the rose [beatification] are one.

Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by robinrohan, posted 09-02-2006 11:33 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by iano, posted 09-03-2006 8:32 AM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 292 of 307 (346312)
09-03-2006 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Archer Opteryx
09-03-2006 3:43 PM


Re: the mystic experience
That's my favorite part of the poem

Here's my favorite part:

Or as, when an underground train, in the tube, stops too long between stations
And the conversation rises and slowly fades into silence
And you see behind every face the mental emptiness deepen
Leaving only the growing terror of nothing to think about . . .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-03-2006 3:43 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by iano, posted 09-04-2006 5:49 PM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 293 of 307 (346317)
09-03-2006 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Archer Opteryx
09-03-2006 6:24 AM


Re: Questions
What specific aspect of, say, TS Eliot's view of the world do you think Jar throws away? Put it forward. Let's ask.

Jar's view is as far from Eliot's as one could imagine.

Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.


"Your friends, if they can, may bury you with some distinction, and set up a monument, to let posterity see that your dust lies under such a stone; and when that is done, all is done. Your place is filled up by another, the world is just in the same state it was, you are blotted out of its sight, and as much forgotten by the world as if you had never belonged to it."--William Law

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-03-2006 6:24 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by nator, posted 09-04-2006 6:32 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 297 of 307 (346539)
09-04-2006 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by nator
09-04-2006 6:32 PM


Re: Questions
The difference is that Eliot believed in the Fall.

Our only health is the disease
If we obey the dying nurse
Whose constant care is not to please
But to remind of our, and Adam's curse,
And that, to be restored, our sickness must grow worse.

Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by nator, posted 09-04-2006 6:32 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by kuresu, posted 09-05-2006 12:37 AM robinrohan has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022