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Author Topic:   Politcally Correct Christ
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 301 (346421)
09-04-2006 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
09-03-2006 2:08 PM


Did you have a big bitch-fit when they translated the Bible into Latin, or into English? Don't you think they used their own judgement then, as well, in regards to the final wording used in the text?
Or did you think that translation was just something you could do with a dictionary and some magic marker?
It's just another translation. King James had it translated into the English spoken in his time, this isn't any different. Nobody's gonna force you to read it, and somehow, I suspect that this Bible isn't going to make Christians hate gays and atheists any less, or whatever apocalyptic consequences of tolerance you're quaking in your boots about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-03-2006 2:08 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 09-04-2006 12:02 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 18 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-04-2006 12:26 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 19 of 301 (346448)
09-04-2006 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Hyroglyphx
09-04-2006 12:26 PM


On translation
Translations don't change the meaning of a word.
Of course they do. Meanings change in every translation, because writing isn't simply a matter of stringing together words with precise, discreet meanings.
Any human writing neccessarily includes things like idiom and connotation - percieved meanings that are familiar to native speakers because of their shared experience with the language. You've never heard the phrase "lost in translation"? What did you think that meant?
Douglas Hofstadter famously explores this very real phenomenon in his book "Le Ton beau de Marot: In Praise of the Music of Language", the title of which is a reference to the French poet Clement Marot, the translation of whose poetry the book is largely about. The title translates roughly as "the beautiful tones of Marot", but this literal translation only encapsulates a small fraction of how the title would be percieved by a native speaker of French. You see, "le ton beau" isn't exactly grammatically accurate; in French it would be more proper to say "le beau ton." But rendered as "le ton beau", it sounds like "le tombeau de Marot" - "the tomb of Marot", and, indeed, the cover of the book has a picture of a tombstone. "Le tombeau" also means "a work of art done in homage to a deceased person", referencing the fact that Hofstadter intends the book in homage both to Marot but also to his wife, a translator of French poetry, who died before it was written.
That's just one example of what can be lost in translation; of how concepts that are easily encapsulated in the words of one langauge can only be grossly approximated in the words of another. I mean it took a pretty long paragraph for me to explain a reference in English that any native speaker of French would have percieved immediately. How can you assert that translation is simply a matter of word substitution?
Father doesn't mean mother and father isn't synoymous with parent.
Well, Paul uses the greek word "arsenkoites" in Corinthinans. It's a word of his own invention, as near as we can tell. Literally translated into English, we might choose to render it as "couch-men." Now, open your Bible to Corinthians and tell me where we find that word "couch-man."
Nowhere, right? Because there are shades of meaning to plain words. Scholars of greek see the root "koitai" used in other contexts, some completly normal - referring to couches or beds - and in other context, as synonyms for sex or prostitution. If I used the term "bedwoman" or "couch-girl", you might understand that I'm saying "prostitute" in a really oblique way. So too does Paul seem to be referring to men whose profession is sex with men, which was a common duty of temple acolytes for certain deities in Greece at the time. Temple prostitution was a very common practice, for both men and women, and it was one that Paul was adamant should not be a part of the early Church.
King James writers, however, chose to render that word as "homosexual", apparently percieving Paul to be condemning a practice that was essentially unknown in the ancient world.
In Hebrew, though? The thing is - the Hebrew word for "father" was often used in a gender-neutral sense*, much as some people use "man" in a gender-neutral sense to try to describe both male and female humans. So, "father" could mean "parent" - in Hebrew. Do you see how that could pose an issue in translation? That simply transliterating from "father" in Hebrew to "father" in English means sacrificing a potential alternate meaning of the word as it was used in Hebrew?
Its a matter of some impressionable young person investigating the scriptures and is going to be confused on what the Word says or means.
How does what you're talking about change the meaning? How is the core experience of Christianity altered if they aren't raised to believe that God has a big cosmic penis? And if he doesn't have Godly male genitals, what's the justification for asserting maleness when maleness may not have been implied by the original text?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-04-2006 12:26 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-04-2006 1:41 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-04-2006 2:33 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 31 by arachnophilia, posted 09-04-2006 4:46 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 22 of 301 (346454)
09-04-2006 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Archer Opteryx
09-04-2006 1:41 PM


Re: On translation
A translation is a performance of a text.
Damn that's like a 1000% better restatement of what I was trying to say. Well done.
To my mind, there's no better example of the translator's performance that Seamus Haney's translation of Beowulf. An astounding work of art that completely revitalized the material for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-04-2006 1:41 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 55 of 301 (346823)
09-05-2006 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by arachnophilia
09-04-2006 4:46 PM


Re: On translation
I'm sure you're right about all the other stuff. Fair enough.
so, if god were of an indeterminant gender (either androgynous, incompatible with our understanding, or just unknown) he would be refered to in the masculine. which might have been what you were meaning to get at.
That's what I meant. Hebrew might have to use the masculine to refer to a gender-indeterminant, but we don't, in English. So who's to say that "Father", which means just males in our language, is the proper translation?
I don't speak or read any Hebrew so thank you for your corrections on the rest of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by arachnophilia, posted 09-04-2006 4:46 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by arachnophilia, posted 09-05-2006 8:16 PM crashfrog has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 58 of 301 (346827)
09-05-2006 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Hyroglyphx
09-04-2006 2:33 PM


Re: On translation
Because we look at the word, the context its being used in, and its relation to what it conveys.
Do you think those things are easy to do? Trivial? How do you understand the context without speaking the language? And what if the context isn't translatable, either? I mean, if anything, percieving context requires even more familiarity with idiom than simple transliteration does.
Look, I'm wearing my favorite T-shirt right now, and it's a testament to how hard translation is. It says "All your base are belong to us."
Just as is it says in the Scriptures, a man's desire will be for His God and the women's desire will be after her husband.
So, men don't desire their wives and women have no interest in faith?
Does that really seem true to you? Sorry, off-topic. But maybe this translation is simply to correct the parts of the Bible that simply don't make any sense?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-04-2006 2:33 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-05-2006 10:16 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 67 of 301 (346960)
09-06-2006 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Hyroglyphx
09-05-2006 10:16 PM


Re: On translation
It wouldn't be an easy thing for us at all, however, if you have a Hebrew and English scholar who is well versed in both languages and somebody that understands the timeframe this is more than possible.
And you think every such scholar is going to come to the exact same conclusions about context?
We don't even see that in our language, NJ. Even native speakers of English disagree about what a given utterance might mean. The entire legal profession is based on those disagreements.
The idea that translation is a simple matter, where everyone who attempts it arrives at the same result, is absurd.
Submission here means honoring and that is a give take situation, just as it says in Ephesians.
Then why doesn't it say "honoring", if that's what it means? If you have to tell me that the word used means something different than what a reader would naturally assume that it means, isn't that basically proof that translation isn't nearly as easy as you make it out to be? That it's always a large part about the personal judgement of the individual translator?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-05-2006 10:16 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-06-2006 12:50 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 69 of 301 (346974)
09-06-2006 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Hyroglyphx
09-06-2006 12:50 PM


Re: On translation
Everyone should arrive at the same result.
But they don't. They don't ever. I mean all the different Bibles are proof enough of that.
How do you explain this? Translators are all idiots and if they only did it your way, they'd all get the same result?
Because the word 'submission' has come to mean something that it never intended.
Look at the word, NJ. "Sub-mission." "sub", as in "under". To be under someone else. Synonym - inferior.
It does not have the original meaning that you ascribe to it. That's just something you're making up right now, to make a statement in the Bible more palatable. You don't believe that the Bible says that women are inferior to men, so you're changing the translation to be more like what you already believe.
Which is exactly what you criticized in your OP. What gives?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-06-2006 12:50 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-06-2006 2:36 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 71 of 301 (347008)
09-06-2006 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Hyroglyphx
09-06-2006 2:36 PM


Re: On translation
The translations are the same. The only disimilarity is them using different synonyms.
Why? Why would they choose to use different synonyms if, as you suggest, it's a simple matter of looking up the transliteration in a dictionary?
If you have a boss, you are inferior to him. Does that means you are less of a person than him?
No, but it means I'm a less experienced person; a person with less of a record of proven judgement; a person with less professional contacts; a person with less of a proven ability to manage others, work from a budget, and do all the other stuff my boss does.
So, in fact, there's a reason that my boss is my boss instead of me. But outside of work? He's just a guy, like me. I see him at Wal-Mart sometimes and we chat. He's out there in the field, usually, aspirating beetles along with the rest of us.
The assertion of the Bible is that men are superior to women in life. Not specific to any context, but just in general. How does that not carry a negative connotation? It's a negative statement.
It means that God gave man the responsibility to oversee the matters of the home
What do you think goes on in a home that needs to be "overseen"? Isn't it a little ridiculous to assert that homemaking is so complicated that you need a whole command structure to make it work?
Have you ever gone out to eat with some friends? Who usually picks the restaurant? I presume you all do. Somehow you're all able to do that without one person needing to take the role of an overseer. Why do you think it works differently when you're married? What do you think happens in a home that two adults can't deal with as partners, without needing one person to be master and the other to be subordinate?
Mutual submission is required by both parties for a helathy marriage and family.
Show me in the Bible where it says that a man should submit to his wife as he submits to God. It doesn't, right?
A man submitting to God and a wife submitting to him isn't mutual submission, it's a chain of command. Mutual submission is symmetric submission to each other, and I don't see that in the Bible. Just because my boss has a boss, doesn't make him and me partners. The submission is not mutual.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-06-2006 2:36 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-06-2006 3:56 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 76 of 301 (347041)
09-06-2006 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Hyroglyphx
09-06-2006 3:56 PM


Re: On translation
I think its just recognizing that God bestows certain qualitative personalities and physical and mental attributes that are better suited for certain situations.
I don't see how the Bible supports that assertion.
I think you're just interpreting the Bible in your own context, to mean what you wish it to mean. Just like those other guys.
However, men tend to be a bit more pragmatic on monetary matters. They tend not to inject as much emotion into critical matters as women.
You seem to forget that anger is an emotion, too, and it's one that pretty consistently impairs the judgement of men more than women. Men, far more often than women, injure themselves or others because they can't control their anger in critical situations. I would not trust a man over a woman to be cool-headed in the clutch under just about any circumstances.
In every household I've ever heard of, the women handled the money because they were the ones cool-headed and practical enough to do it. The way I grew up, handling money, paying bills and making those kinds of decisions, was "women's work." Even to this day if I want to spend some money on something, it's basically my wife's call because I know she's a lot more responsible than me in that regard - again, because women tend to be more rational and cool-headed than men, in my experience.
When you're on a date, who usually picks up the tab?
The server usually hands it to me, but since we have a joint checking account, we both do.
When you are on a date, who opens the cardoor for the other person?
My wife has arms. We both know how to open a car door. If I started rushing over to do it all the time she'd probably kick me in the balls.
When you are on a date who typically drives their own vehicle and basically chauffeurs their date?
Her name is on the title of our car, but we both drive it.
I also believe, however, that these are natural inclinations that should not be dismissed.
I don't know what "inclinations" you're referring to. In my marriage we handle things like adults. We arrive at a consensus. We rarely argue. Almost never, in fact. And absolutely none of the above is an answer to my question, which was:
quote:
What do you think goes on in a home that needs to be "overseen"?
It says it in the verse I provided.
No, it doesn't. It says that the woman should submit to the man as the man submits to God.
Where does it say that the man should submit to his wife as though to God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-06-2006 3:56 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-06-2006 8:53 PM crashfrog has not replied

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