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Author Topic:   The Flood - Animals and their minimum food requirement
johnfolton 
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Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 166 of 239 (346565)
09-04-2006 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by ringo
09-04-2006 10:20 PM


Re: Food Supply Resprouted (Fresh Water Flood)
Also nonsense. The oceans covered the whole earth. It was all salt water, so nothing would grow.

Sorry it was a freshwater flood the oceans mixed after the flood waters washed off the continents. I've never seen it rain salt, hmmm.....

I think what your confusing is overspray from hurricanes winds that would of been non existant because of the sun being blocked to prevent winds from being generated.

Fresh water(mineral rich sediments) would of been a perfect medium for the regeneration of the plant life, to the restablishing of the fisheries even before the flood waters washed off the continents.

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.


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ringo
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Posts: 16460
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 167 of 239 (346566)
09-04-2006 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by johnfolton
09-04-2006 10:31 PM


Re: Food Supply Resprouted (Fresh Water Flood)
johnfolton writes:

Sorry it was a freshwater flood....

Impossible. The salt was there. It didn't magically appear after the flood.
Water dissolves salt, ergo salt water.

But that's off topic. We're supposed to be talking about the food supply on the ark, not the non-existent veggie mats or the impossibility of growing food after the flood.

Edited by Ringo, : Formatting.


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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 3201 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 168 of 239 (346567)
09-04-2006 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by johnfolton
09-04-2006 10:23 PM


Re: Query about figures.
Not how it works, In the natural Heat rises so what was coming back to the earth was not heated waters but waters cooled in the upper atmosphere extending thousands of miles upward and thus returning to the earth in the form of rain.

I would point out that the atmosphere is not an endless heatsink. It does have a finite cooling ability. Plus as porbably pointed out any rain coming from that high up will have an absurdly large kinetic energy such that it will vaporize and return back to its gaseous phase long before even touching the ground.

Also as pointed by wiki 3/4 of the atmospheres weight is within 11 km of the surface, and 120km is where atmospheric rentry difficulties occur. So why the heck do you have an atmosphere thousands of miles deep? Where do you get those numbers, and do you even understand what those numbers mean?

The atmosphere acts as a gigantic airconditioner, because heat rises and the bible is clear in that it rained 40 days thus the heat rose and rain returned in the form of rain, snow, for those 40 days. There was not a humidity problem because no steam problem existed during the deluge.

Are you even aware what steam is? (Gaseous water), and gasoes water exists at nearly every atmospheric temperature, and if you are talking a 25 C in a flooded world, there will be quite a bit of water present in the air.


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16094
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Message 169 of 239 (346568)
09-04-2006 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
06-27-2006 1:09 PM


There is absolutely no doubt that the dinosaur fossils are evidence of the flood as in fact all the fossils over the earth are evidence of the flood. Such an event, causing rapid burial of intact creatures, is the only way the conditions for such preservation could have occurred. Some of the dinosaur beds show great numbers of them all piled up together as if washed into their grave by one great rush of water.

"Absolutely no doubt"? Er, have you ever heard of these people called "scientists"? They doubt it. That's what a lifetime of studying the facts will do for you.

For example, a scientist (have you really not heard of them?) would be able to tell you that by no means all fossils are intact. They would be able to tell you that creatures are in fact buried in suitable conditions all the time; and that it is ridiculous beyond belief to suppose that this has happened only once in the history of the world. They would be able to tell you about fossils preserved in lava flows and volcanic ash; and of preservation by dessication in deserts. They would be able to tell you about fossil strata which are laid down annually, such as fossils of rivermouth deposits. They could tell you the dates of the rocks and demonstrate that they were laid down millions or billions of years apart. They could tell you that different ecosystems are contained in different strata. For example, in the UK we have fossils of both tropical and Ice Age ecosystems. They could tell you about a fossil layer of 2200 feet of crinoid shells in North Dakota --- do you really suppose that they all lived and died at the same time? What do you suppose would happen to an unfossilized shell with 2200 feet of other shells on top of it? They could also tell you that the major victims of a flood are not usually fish.

So of course scientists "doubt" that all fossils are evidence of the Noachim Flood; in fact, they don't so much "doubt" this proposition as fall about laughing at how dumb it is.

Moreover, even creationists don't all agree on this topic.

Here's AiG: "Second, modern creationists think that the mammoths were not fossilized by the Flood." * (My italics.) They, therefore not only doubt that "all the fossils over the earth are evidence of the flood", they also flatly deny that creationists believe this. To take another case, the creationist Victor Pearce claims that fossils were made "in the beginning", in Genesis 1.

So not only do scientists "doubt", or let's be accurate, laugh to scorn, the proposition that "all the fossils over the earth are evidence of the flood", but creationists can't agree on it either: 'cos there is in fact no evidence for this proposition.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3729 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 170 of 239 (346574)
09-04-2006 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Discreet Label
09-04-2006 10:40 PM


Re: Query about figures.
Are you even aware what steam is? (Gaseous water), and gasoes water exists at nearly every atmospheric temperature, and if you are talking a 25 C in a flooded world, there will be quite a bit of water present in the air.

Water erupting as steam is quite similar to this energy solution talking about steam in a near vacuum state will phase back to a chilled state to 46 Degrees F.

Hopefully this article will explain how your excessive steamtemps are chilled in near vacuum states (as would of existed within the upper atmosphere) to 46 Degrees F.

The creatures on the ark and the grains within Noahs arks sealed bins rooms would not of been overheated by the waters returning to the earth.

http://www.energysolutionscenter.org/tech/tech_absorpchill.asp

The refrigerant used is actually water, as that is the working medium that experiences a phase change that causes the cooling affect. The second fluid that drives the process is a salt, generally lithium bromide. Heat is used to separate the two fluids; when they are brought back together in a near vacuum environment, the water experiences a phase change to remix with the salt at a very low temperature (at normal atmosphere pressure, water vaporizes at 212F; in an absorber, water vaporizes cold enough to produce 46F chilled water.)

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16094
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 171 of 239 (346576)
09-05-2006 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by johnfolton
09-04-2006 11:57 PM


Hopefully this article will explain how your excessive steamtemps are chilled in near vacuum states (as would of existed within the upper atmosphere) to 46 Degrees F.

Er, unless there were lots of pumps and boilers and cooling towers and stuff floating around in the upper atmosphere, I don't see the relevance of the article.


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Discreet Label
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Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 172 of 239 (346577)
09-05-2006 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by johnfolton
09-04-2006 11:57 PM


Re: Query about figures.
Water erupting as steam is quite similar to this energy solution talking about steam in a near vacuum state will phase back to a chilled state to 46 Degrees F.

Hopefully this article will explain how your excessive steamtemps are chilled in near vacuum states (as would of existed within the upper atmosphere) to 46 Degrees F.

The creatures on the ark and the grains within Noahs arks sealed bins rooms would not of been overheated by the waters returning to the earth

So now you are claiming that the planet is literaly a machine in the manner you are describing? Can you show how that would apply to earth?
Wheres the seperation films, wheres the the controlled flow of materials? How does atmospheric convections apply?

You still are neglecting the fact that water descendin to earth fromt he distances you describe will vaporize long before it touches down?

Where is your support about the thickness of the atmopshere? You are continuing to make assertions without addressing the problems that continue to arise?

While i would say your 'vacuum' exists? your system isn't at all controlled like the refrigerator you linked to.

The creatures on the ark and the grains within Noahs arks sealed bins rooms would not of been overheated by the waters returning to the earth.

I'll continue to laugh at your bizarre assertions. Noah's Ark had some form of window..and if it had a window you cannot insululate the boat against the superheated water thats coming down.


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Taz
Member (Idle past 1429 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 173 of 239 (346588)
09-05-2006 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Discreet Label
09-05-2006 12:11 AM


Re: Query about figures.
quote:
I'll continue to laugh at your bizarre assertions. Noah's Ark had some form of window..and if it had a window you cannot insululate the boat against the superheated water thats coming down.


Before an admin gets involved and stops us from continuing in this vein, I would like to propose the possibility that Noah, his family members, and all the animal onboard held their breaths for 40 days and 40 nights because there were no windows on the big-ass ship.
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 174 of 239 (346589)
09-05-2006 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by johnfolton
09-04-2006 10:23 PM


Re: flood facts
johnfolton writes:

Trees and animals, layers of peat and mosses, twisted and mangled together like some giant mixer had jumbled them some 10,000 years ago, and then froze them into a solid mass. The evidence immediately suggests an enormous tidal wave which raged over the land, tumbling animals and vegetation within its mass, which was then quick-frozen (Sanderson, 1960).

But not before meticulously separating the corpses of trilobites, dinosaurs, and mammals and laying each down carefully in its own separate bed within the strata.

The Glaciers from a creationist point of view happened during the biblical deluge, it was winter in the northern hemisphere. The insects, fish, frogs, trees, would of been temporarily frozen as summer came to be the glaciers would of started melting in the northern hemisphere.

All these creatures (and seeds) thawing out from the ice would of multiplied rapidly after the flood waters abated. The evidence is pretty conclusive that the glaciers happened quite suddenly, to a creationists reseeding (regenerating) the earth food supply for the creatures coming forth from the Noah's ark.

Interesting hypothesis. I tried an experiment yesterday as soon as I read this.

I took a male and a female frog, immersed them in a cup of water, and stuck the cup in my freezer.

I pulled the cup out an hour ago. The ice melted and I used a blow dryer to thaw out the frogs.

But they don't seem to be in much of a mood to multiply--rapidly or otherwise.

What did I do wrong? Should I leave them in the freezer longer? Throw in some peat moss?

Please advise.

Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo.

Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo.


Archer

All species are transitional.


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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 175 of 239 (346593)
09-05-2006 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by johnfolton
09-04-2006 10:23 PM


fun with flooding
johnfolton writes:

The Glaciers from a creationist point of view happened during the biblical deluge, it was winter in the northern hemisphere. The insects, fish, frogs, trees, would of been temporarily frozen as summer came to be the glaciers would of started melting in the northern hemisphere.

All these creatures (and seeds) thawing out from the ice would of multiplied rapidly after the flood waters abated. The evidence is pretty conclusive that the glaciers happened quite suddenly, to a creationists reseeding (regenerating) the earth food supply for the creatures coming forth from the Noah's ark.

Then why have an ark at all?

Noah and his family would only need to be frozen into a glacier for the duration, then thawed out. It would save them all the trouble of building a ship and taking care of animals.


Archer

All species are transitional.


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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 2253 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 176 of 239 (346595)
09-05-2006 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by johnfolton
09-04-2006 10:23 PM


Re: Query about figures.
Not how it works, In the natural Heat rises so what was coming back to the earth was not heated waters but waters cooled in the upper atmosphere extending thousands of miles upward and thus returning to the earth in the form of rain.

Where are you getting these numbers? The atmosphere is only a hundred or so miles upward from the surface of the earth. And rainfall only comes from clouds that are a few miles above the surface of the Earth. Your argument is based upon a planet that doesn't exist. Furthermore, your notion requires that the 700,000,000 or so cubic miles of water would have to be the same temperature as the oceans. That occurs nowhere in Earth. So unless this was magical water using magical physics, your argument is bull.

The atmosphere acts as a gigantic airconditioner, because heat rises and the bible is clear in that it rained 40 days thus the heat rose and rain returned in the form of rain, snow, for those 40 days. There was not a humidity problem because no steam problem existed during the deluge.

That makes no sense whatsoever. As stated before, rainfall comes from clouds a few miles above the Earth. The interactions would be limited to these few miles of atmsophere, quickly limiting any heat transfer. Not to mention that if it rained in the first place, everything would be dead in the first place as the pressure from 700,000,000 cubic miles of water would make liquids in tissue lethal. Sources like Answers in Genesis state that the water came from within the Earth. The problem is it would be superheated steam. The mantle is often 800 degrees farenheit. 700,000,000 cubic miles of steam released at once would have boiled away the oceans as well as killed all life instantly. So unless it was magical water, it didn't happen.

It then says after the rain stopped God caused a wind to blow over the earth. There would not been a wind problem after the initial tusami, which was why Noah was mocked for building a ship thousands of miles from the ocean.

Given that nothing would be alive after the rainfall, that isn't a problem.

He would of been sheltered from an initial tusami wave thats explains the massive fossil deposits found in Alaska and Siberia.

That explains nothing and isn't even relevant.

The insects, fish, frogs, trees, would of been temporarily frozen as summer came to be the glaciers would of started melting in the northern hemisphere.

That isn't possible as the temperature changes would have melted the glaciers. Try a little experiment. Get a handful of icecubes. Put them under the facet and turn it on. How long do they last? How did glaciers survive 6 inches of water falling every minute for 40 days and 40 nights as well as the increased temperature from the superheated steam? Your argument requires a set of physics that is completely removed from this plane of existance

The evidence is pretty conclusive that the glaciers happened quite suddenly, to a creationists reseeding (regenerating) the earth food supply for the creatures coming forth from the Noah's ark.

And what did they eat? No top soil, salted earth. Not great growing conditions eh?

All your link does is argue for a quick happening Ice Age. Nothing more. Plus it has dates that contridict creation. Did you not read it?

Edited by obvious Child, : No reason given.


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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 2253 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 177 of 239 (346598)
09-05-2006 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by johnfolton
09-04-2006 10:31 PM


Re: Food Supply Resprouted (Fresh Water Flood)
I think what your confusing is overspray from hurricanes winds that would of been non existant because of the sun being blocked to prevent winds from being generated.

Then the oceans would be virtually dead or on their way except for chemoautotrophs and bottom feeders.

The foundation for the ocean's food pyramid is plankton, specifically phoytopankton. No sun = no phoytopankton. No primarily food souce removes the 1st level of predators which quickly removes the next, which then removes the next until all you have left is starving teritary predators and bottom feeders. Not to mention massive die offs of plantkon as well as all plants results in chemical decomposition which more or less results in a red tide effect, consuming all of the oxygen and killing everything left in the oceans. Given that the oceans provide the majority of the oxygen on the planet, how does creationism get over this massive problem? As the bible does not state Noah saved marine animals, the oceans today should be completely empty. So unless there were MAGICAL animals with MAGICAL Algea, and MAGICAL Plantkon that didn't need light to produce food, your argument is bull.

Fresh water(mineral rich sediments) would of been a perfect medium for the regeneration of the plant life, to the restablishing of the fisheries even before the flood waters washed off the continents.

Well, no food in the ocean = no fish. So that quickly eliminates that argument. Secondly, fresh water is no more rich in sediment and minerals then salt water. Fresh water is merely water without salt. And if it rained (unlikely as that is), it would be more or less pure without such minerals or sediments. It is a basic fact that water flows down hill, and downhill is towards the ocean. Top soil would have been taken with the receding flood waters depositing top soil on the bottom of the sea floor. Thus, the land would have been stripped of the fertile grounds necessary to grow plants in necessary quantities. Not to mention that receding flood waters would have despoited millions of tons of salt on the land, resulting in virtually impossible growing conditions. So unless God sprinkled top soil, pulled out a vaccum to suck up all of the salt, the flood didn't happen


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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 2253 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 178 of 239 (346599)
09-05-2006 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Dr Adequate
09-05-2006 12:10 AM


it's not revelant at all. he just went searching for anything and posted it hoping we wouldn't read it.

The link is irrelevant because it requires a near vaccum, nothing of the sort which has ever existed naturally on Earth.

Plus the sheer amount of kinetic energy released by 700,000,000 cubic miles of water override anything in that article. Not to mention that these chillers require a source of power. That itself negates any relevance of the article, unless he wants to argue it was a magical, free energy god powered mega chiller...


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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 2253 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 179 of 239 (346603)
09-05-2006 3:48 AM


Enuma Elish & Gligamesh
We all know that Christanity stole the flood story from Enmua Elish which jacked it from Gligamesh.

What is the basic outlines of those in terms of animals, food, etc?


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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3729 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 180 of 239 (346638)
09-05-2006 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by obvious Child
09-05-2006 3:14 AM


Re: Query about figures.
That occurs nowhere in Earth. So unless this was magical water using magical physics, your argument is bull.

The creationists quite rightly talk of the water canopy above coming down due to the fountains of the deep erupting primarily water and secondary ash upwards. Its not magical but normal for water vapor produced in a near vacuum to cool sufficiently with an abosorbant. Its not magical but science, you need a dust particle (absorbant) for rain to form.

And what did they eat? No top soil, salted earth. Not great growing conditions eh?

Actually the salt deposits formed during the pre-flood time was covered by the anionic cationic mineral sediments rich particles erupting out from the biblical fountains of the deep. Particles like(iron aluminum salts) only promote settling would of been maintaining of the freshwater environment for the fishes and the hydroponics happenings on these floating mats of vegetation during and after the flood.

Its these ashlike sediments erupting upward thats believed to of brought down the water canopy down mentioned in genesis. The bible is quite clear that the birds flew in the firmament between the waters below and the waters above. Until ash was spewed upward this water vapor canopy just welled upward (increasing the air pressure) which is why the pterosaurs could fly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pterosaur

All your link does is argue for a quick happening Ice Age. Nothing more. Plus it has dates that contridict creation. Did you not read it?

The evolutionists don't factor in biological happenings affecting the ratio or that the elements of the earth formed before the earth was thus it has no bearing to the age of the earth.

The mineral rich sediments by its settling is what the bible is referring to when it says "the earth destroyed" all the life on the surface of the ground. This to the creationists is how the fossil record happened quite suddenly.

If it was not for the iron aluminum salts from within the fountains of the deep erupting steam upwards the sediments would not of settled as quickly and would under that senerio would of primarily washed off the continents.

Its because these sediment rich particles settled into multiple of varves that you had the perfect senerio for the earth to regenerate naturally to provide food for all the creatures that survived on the ark and on the floating mats of vegetation.

I'll agree some diffused light filtered through the rain for those 40 days but don't see how winds were a major factor during the flood.

The bible says the winds came after the flood (genesis 8:1) & and that the earth rose and settled after the 40 days expired but its the fresh water mineral springs (formed by the flood) water pressures welling upwards even up hills mentioned in psalms 104:10 provides water for rivers and lakes.

This is how all the creatures had freshwater after the flood with rain restablishing the herbs grasses (food) and recharging the aquifiers formed during the biblical deluge.

Without these waters springing upwards the creatures on the ark would of not survived upon leaving the ark. Rivers formed, Lakes formed to support all life restablishing the regeneration of the earth. It was a new earth the old one the bible says had passed away(perished). 2 peter 3:6.

psalm 104:8-10

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.


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