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Author Topic:   A Big Bang Misconception
nipok
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 83 (346909)
09-06-2006 2:56 AM


The real misconception
The only misconception is what existed before the big bang. It is a misconception and a leap of faith to assume that the event that triggered the expansion that we see all around us in all directions did not have some initial velocity within its own relative frame of reference and that it therefore did not come into expansion within a larger pocket of space/time. All we see is that which is relative to us and within the realm of our current scientific precision. We perceive our space time and all that we are capable of detecting both inwards and outwards with such a closed mind. Think about it, think about the number of stars in our known universe yet a very large percentage of our population has doubts as to whether there is life on other planets. The same reasons that make so many relatively intelligent people question the certainty that there exists other habitable planets with life on them in our known universe is the same set of reasons that our science has been unable to propose the likely hood that our known universe, our pocket of space/time is one of an infinite number of such pockets of space/time or POSTs that have existed for an infinite length of time and will continue to do so.

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 83 (346936)
09-06-2006 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by nipok
09-06-2006 2:56 AM


Re: The real misconception
quote:
The only misconception is what existed before the big bang. It is a misconception and a leap of faith to assume that the event that triggered the expansion that we see all around us in all directions did not have some initial velocity within its own relative frame of reference and that it therefore did not come into expansion within a larger pocket of space/time.
Actually, it's a leap of faith (and perhaps a misconception) that there was an event that "triggered the expansion". It could very well be that the universe simply began to exist, and it began in a very small, very dense, very hot, and expanding state.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

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 Message 76 by nipok, posted 09-06-2006 2:56 AM nipok has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3664 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 78 of 83 (347063)
09-06-2006 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Percy
08-31-2006 9:57 AM


Re: This is pointless...
Very briefly visiting... hopefully back properly soon.
When too much matter is gathered in too small a space, then you get a black hole.
Sometimes, not always. To get a black hole you need to have sufficient matter concentrated within a volume, surrounded by space of much lower density, usually vacuum. Even then, there are several requirements. This is not the situation with the early universe. There you have uniform density of matter throughout space. These two situations give rise to wholly different space-time solutions.
As Chirop very rightly said in answer to the original question (what force was powerful to overtake all that gravity in order to get the universe to spread out?) it's just General Relativity. GR is non-linear. That means that you cannot extrapolate one situation and hope to get anything resembling some other situation. That's what makes exploring GR so exciting... you never know what you are going to find.
Also, be careful of thinking too three-dimensionally. GR is a 4d theory and only really makes sense when viewed in 4d, especially the dynamics of the big bang/early universe. Our everyday idea of gravitation as gravity - the force between massive objects - does not extrapolate well up to the universe as a whole.
I have a feeling the explanation is going to involve inflation
No, not at all. Inflation is merely there as a suggested way of explaining some residual oddities. The Big Bang is entirely GR where-as inflation is GR+QFT, venturing into semi-classical gravity.
There was no solid matter to spin at the time of the big bang
Just as an aside, you don't need solid matter to have angular momentum. Space-time itself can posses ang mom. The Kerr solution is an entire universe that spins, but has no mass. Very non-Machian.
Will keep an eye out for any replies but rapid responses can't be promised... sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Percy, posted 08-31-2006 9:57 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Percy, posted 09-06-2006 6:39 PM cavediver has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22479
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 79 of 83 (347075)
09-06-2006 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by cavediver
09-06-2006 6:10 PM


Re: This is pointless...
cavediver writes:
Sometimes, not always. To get a black hole you need to have sufficient matter concentrated within a volume, surrounded by space of much lower density, usually vacuum. Even then, there are several requirements. This is not the situation with the early universe. There you have uniform density of matter throughout space. These two situations give rise to wholly different space-time solutions.
Ooh! Ooh! Yes, of course! Thank you for this explanation!
There was no solid matter to spin at the time of the big bang
Just as an aside, you don't need solid matter to have angular momentum. Space-time itself can posses ang mom. The Kerr solution is an entire universe that spins, but has no mass. Very non-Machian.
And a spinning singularity is a possibility, too, I assume?
My mention of the absence of solid matter at the time of the Big Bang was addressing where Eledhan said, "...objects that break off of the original object all spin the same direction."
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by cavediver, posted 09-06-2006 6:10 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by cavediver, posted 09-06-2006 7:23 PM Percy has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3664 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 80 of 83 (347088)
09-06-2006 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Percy
09-06-2006 6:39 PM


Re: This is pointless...
And a spinning singularity is a possibility, too, I assume?
Yes. We usually regard the singularity of the Kerr solution (it's a black hole) as the source of the ang mom. But the singularity itself is very weird: it's in the shape of a ring. However, if you pass through the ring, you end up somwhere different than if you just go round the outside! You have to go round twice to get back to where you started from
My mention of the absence of solid matter...
Ahh, yes, I see now.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by kuresu, posted 09-06-2006 8:21 PM cavediver has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2533 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 81 of 83 (347115)
09-06-2006 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by cavediver
09-06-2006 7:23 PM


Re: This is pointless...
the ring-shaped singularity?
any relation to the blackhole type that could hypothetically be used for wormhole travel?
mind explaining it a little further when you get some time?

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by cavediver, posted 09-06-2006 7:23 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by cavediver, posted 09-07-2006 4:50 AM kuresu has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3664 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 82 of 83 (347212)
09-07-2006 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by kuresu
09-06-2006 8:21 PM


Re: This is pointless...
any relation to the blackhole type that could hypothetically be used for wormhole travel?
OT here. If you or someone wants to start a thread on a black hole q&a then I probably won't be able to resist putting some time in.
But for now: yes it is related but not because of the ring nature of the singularity, but becasue of the dual "charges" of the black hole: "mass" and ang. mom. - yes, I know I said the Kerr solution has zero mass, but this is a different "mass"

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Ingvar
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 83 (359721)
10-29-2006 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by New Cat's Eye
08-25-2006 4:45 PM


Explanation of the expansion
quote:
I don’t know what “the power of space expansion” is.
It isn't the space that is expanding -- it is the radiation that is displaced as an entropy effect that forces the radiation to decrease its energy towards equilibrium.
It is the same law of nature for electrodynamics (lightwaves) and hydrodynamics (waterwaves) and aerodynamics (soundwaves).
See the experiments at The Unified Theory of Physics
-
Edited by Ingvar, : No reason given.

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