Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Thank You Adam Smith.
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 91 of 124 (347613)
09-08-2006 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by joshua221
09-08-2006 7:25 PM


Re: This is just about the funniest thing.
The problem was that the ideas in your initial post were almost all wrong, you made no effort to defend them, when the absurdity of the OP was pointed out to you you simply retreated into and even more absurd moral outrage and then tried to defend the idea that you were going to be free from a system you never demonstrated existed or explained how or why such a tactic would be reasonable or desirable.
Now you have the chutzpah to come back and post something like:
I GUESS I'M JUST TRYING TO SAY THAT THIS POST WASN'T ABOUT YOUR DEAD THEORIES THAT HOLD NO IMPORTANCE IN THE EYES OF GOD, AND THANK YOU ALL FOR SUCKING ME INTO IT, AND BRINGING ME DOWN WITH YOU INTO THE FIERY PITS OF MEANINGLESSNESS, MEDIOCRITY, AND MINDLESSNESS.
A fine rant! Well, perhaps fine is a little strong. A mediocre rant. And you are right, your posts have been fun.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by joshua221, posted 09-08-2006 7:25 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by joshua221, posted 09-08-2006 8:07 PM jar has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 92 of 124 (347615)
09-08-2006 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by joshua221
09-08-2006 7:25 PM


Re: This is just about the funniest thing.
Can't you see that economic theory has no bearing on reality, it's an illusion, open your eyes.
I GUESS I'M JUST TRYING TO SAY THAT THIS POST WASN'T ABOUT YOUR DEAD THEORIES THAT HOLD NO IMPORTANCE IN THE EYES OF GOD, AND THANK YOU ALL FOR SUCKING ME INTO IT, AND BRINGING ME DOWN WITH YOU INTO THE FIERY PITS OF MEANINGLESSNESS, MEDIOCRITY, AND MINDLESSNESS.
Can't you see that your own idealism has no bearing on reality?
You don't deserve me, you don't deserve my thoughts, you don't deserve any of what I can tell you.
That's not exactly the way to win friends and influence people

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by joshua221, posted 09-08-2006 7:25 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by joshua221, posted 09-08-2006 8:09 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 124 (347616)
09-08-2006 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by jar
09-08-2006 7:48 PM


Re: This is just about the funniest thing.
But my ideas were absolutely true, all of those things exist because of this system. I see it plain as day.
It's so screwed up.
Would you like me to prove that
competition
fatalities
rat-race
nicotine in cigarettes
the corporate money-making world
money
business as usual
the have-nots
the struggling
Social Darwinism
Industrialization
mediocrity
ghettoes
slums
retirement at 65
meaningless occupation
jobs
slavery
misleading the entire world
World Wars
killing for oil
Jingoism
Imperialism
borders
Nationalism
September 11th
terrorism
the primitive workings of the human mind
automobiles and thank you for pollution
not really living
the suburbs
the American Dream
conformity
glass cielings
Capitalism
the System
Don't exist because of the perpetuation of the ideas of Adam Smith. And the perpetuation of ideas like those of Adam Smith, and the ideas of economics, and competition, and material gain?
It is so obvious that these "things" have been put in place because of human nature, and men who focus there lives on what is unimportant.
It is so obvious that blame cannot be put on one man, Adam Smith.
This was of course not my point.
I don't know. I just go so angry with these posters here. They didn't get what I was getting at, and it all ended with the questioning of my credentials, which was really all too funny.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by jar, posted 09-08-2006 7:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by nwr, posted 09-08-2006 8:19 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 96 by jar, posted 09-08-2006 8:21 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 97 by Quetzal, posted 09-08-2006 8:26 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 115 by Brian, posted 09-09-2006 5:07 AM joshua221 has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 124 (347617)
09-08-2006 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by nwr
09-08-2006 8:06 PM


Re: This is just about the funniest thing.
quote:
Can't you see that your own idealism has no bearing on reality?
No, it does, but the man-made systems have decieved you.
The way I put it, it sounds like Conspiracy Theory stuff, but it's not.
Edited by prophex, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by nwr, posted 09-08-2006 8:06 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 95 of 124 (347618)
09-08-2006 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by joshua221
09-08-2006 8:07 PM


Re: This is just about the funniest thing.
It's so screwed up.
Do you really believe that live was better, more meaningful, for the noble savage.
(see also the wiki entry)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by joshua221, posted 09-08-2006 8:07 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by joshua221, posted 09-08-2006 8:30 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 96 of 124 (347619)
09-08-2006 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by joshua221
09-08-2006 8:07 PM


Re: This is just about the funniest thing.
I don't know. I just go so angry with these posters here. They didn't get what I was getting at, and it all ended with the questioning of my credentials, which was really all too funny.
They don't get what you were getting at because...?
The failure is not on their end prophex. You wrote the OP. The statements in the OP were simply wrong. You blamed it all on Adam Smith.
Charley don't get mad at others for your failure. You wrote a lousy OP. You had a chance to revise it so that perhaps it reflected what you really wanted to discuss, but you decided not to take that route.
The job of getting your ideas across is all yours. No one else can do that. When you start a thread with a rant and a false premise how can you expect to sell your idea?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by joshua221, posted 09-08-2006 8:07 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by joshua221, posted 09-08-2006 8:32 PM jar has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 97 of 124 (347620)
09-08-2006 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by joshua221
09-08-2006 8:07 PM


Re: This is just about the funniest thing.
But my ideas were absolutely true, all of those things exist because of this system. I see it plain as day.
It's so screwed up.
I think all anyone's really asking for is some kind of discussion rather than a list of things wrong (or that you think are wrong) with society. "Rage against the machine" is all very well and good, but if you want to convince people about your views, it is probably better to actually present them. Just a suggestion.
Oh, and implying people are ignorant or blind or whatever just because they don't immediately "see" the same things you do or instantly acquiesce to your points probably isn't really a good tactic, either. It's much more convincing if you try and explain your reasoning. Perhaps it's not quite as obvious to others as it apparently is to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by joshua221, posted 09-08-2006 8:07 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by joshua221, posted 09-08-2006 8:37 PM Quetzal has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 124 (347621)
09-08-2006 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by nwr
09-08-2006 8:19 PM


Re: This is just about the funniest thing.
I want to take that course.
If I ever did respond to sidelined, I would have written "Rousseau's idea of a common will and understanding within a society to do what is right."
That's crazy you wrote that. He titled it the noble savage, his idea of what life should be like right? I need to take out his writing on society, I've read only shortened versions of his works dealing with education I believe.
Emile, that's the keeper.
Edited by prophex, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by nwr, posted 09-08-2006 8:19 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by sidelined, posted 09-09-2006 12:05 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 124 (347622)
09-08-2006 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by jar
09-08-2006 8:21 PM


Re: This is just about the funniest thing.
I didn't blame it all on Adam Smith, I simply borrowed his name and reputation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 09-08-2006 8:21 PM jar has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 124 (347624)
09-08-2006 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Quetzal
09-08-2006 8:26 PM


Re: This is just about the funniest thing.
I think you're right, I should have supported my statement with evidence, but I didn't think it needed proving. In the beginning, I thought most would agree. Maybe this piece wasn't meant to be discussed. As jar said.
It's just a statement that is hard for me to explain. You know how I have been saying how it's not about Adam Smith and stuff. Maybe it's not clear, I'm not sure. It's like a poem I guess like cartman said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Quetzal, posted 09-08-2006 8:26 PM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Quetzal, posted 09-08-2006 9:55 PM joshua221 has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 101 of 124 (347634)
09-08-2006 9:05 PM


Kuresu made some rather simple and valid points that have been ignored for quite long enough.
Kuresu writes:
I must say, you do a great job of blaming Adam Smith for a bunch of shit he's not responsible for.
The competition's been arond forever--ever since we've had tribes competing against one another.
nicotene is naturally found in tobaccoo, and was already being used in the 1600s--why do you think it was a cash crop (for Virginia) under the mercantilist system?
money--ever since we switched from the bargaining system, we've had money. I mean, even Hammurabi's code deals with debt and credit, and we know they had money from the this--"if you don't have the cash, you gotta pay with grain" (paraphrased)
there have always been have-nots--ever since we've had greed.
I admit, social darwinism was bad--but so is this current capitalism--robber barons and Exxon-mobil was not what Smith was advocating
industrialization--I don't know how that relates to capitalism. Care to elaborate?
mediocrity has been here for a long while, and is actually not advocated by capitalism. why? if you make a so-so product, and someone else makes a better quality product, which are you going to buy? If you say the mediocre one, it is only becuase you do not care for quality.
while you're blaming ghettoes on capitalism, be sure to blame Hitler too. Better yet, blame the ghettoes on the greedy robber barons who abused the capitalist system.
aren't slums the same thing as ghettoes?
You know, at least we get to retire at 65 and enjoy life afterwards--want to go back to a time when living to 65 was rare? Like in Smith's time?
We've always had jobs--ever since something needed to be done. the first civilization, Sumer, had jobs.
again, seeing as how you equate jobs with meaningless occupation, blame the damn sumerians.
slavery was well in existence before capitalism. Again, the sumerians had slaves. blame them for the idea.
I'm not sure which misleads the world more--communism, fanatic crackpots, idealists, or capitalistism?
On the point of the world wars--I defintely disagree. WWI was the result of a crazed ruler desparate to prove Europe of germany, and his own, might. WWII was the direct result of the Versailles Treaty--it's unfairness and the unwillingness to defend it.
The first we killed for oil was in WWI--without it the war would've been lost by britain and france before we stepped in.
Jingoism is a result of imperialism, see below
You want to tell me that Hammurabi, Alexander, the Romans, the Egyptians, the Hittites, and many other ancient and classical civilization's weren't in the least bit imperial, and wanted to expand their empire?
We've had borders since we first had city-states--again, blame the sumerians.
Nationalism is not the result of Capitalism--it is, in fact, one of the results of raison d'etat.
You know, I personally blame Osama for 9/11, but whatever.
Terrorism has been around for a long time--far longer than has capitalism.
I would blame your God for making our minds so primitive, not something that didn't actually create them. (in my case, I blame evolution for the screwed up body I've got)
Don't see what capitalism has to do with automobiles and pollution. care to elaborate?
Something tells me you don't mean to thank Smith for not living, as he did in fact live. If you blame him for the "false" live we all lead, its our choice to follow the "false" lives. I happen to think mine's real, but then, "I think not" (oops. do I disappear now)
suburbs are a direct result of the American dream, and we've had the american dream before most farmers were introduced to capitalism. It is, instead, a direct result of our greed.
I'm not sure what conformity and capitalism share, care to elaborate?
as to those glass ceilings--I like my sky lights
you know, it's a good thing there glass--we can break through them. Now, had you made them out of steel and other really strong materials, we'd be deep in trouble. Oh wait, good thing we've got capitalism--who knows what's on the other side, right? It could be an economic goldmine--and whoever gets there first wins. sorry, no ceilings, not where there's money to be made.
At least you do thank him for the one thing he is directly responsible for--capitalism.
What system? You mean we live in the matrix!? shit, we need neo, now. there's always been a system--bargaining, mercantilism, communism, capitalism, and then the governments. Might as well lay the blame at everybody's feet.
Point put simple--quit blaming the wrong guy. Or, actually do something about it if you think it's so bad.

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by joshua221, posted 09-08-2006 10:48 PM Taz has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 102 of 124 (347651)
09-08-2006 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by joshua221
09-08-2006 8:37 PM


Re: This is just about the funniest thing.
I think you're right, I should have supported my statement with evidence, but I didn't think it needed proving. In the beginning, I thought most would agree.
Ah, well. You'd be surprised at what people disagree on. There were a fair selection of items on your list that I would disagree with, in fact (assuming the list you posted represented "bad" things). However, I have to confess I'm very disinclined to argue about them without you at least putting down some initial reasoning on each.
Never take agreement for granted - this is a debate board, after all. If you want to convince people with the force of your argument, you need to present it in a persuasive fashion. Not everyone is going to see the world the way you do.
You know how I have been saying how it's not about Adam Smith and stuff. Maybe it's not clear, I'm not sure. It's like a poem I guess like cartman said.
Yeah, I kind of took it that way, seeing as none of the items on your list can actually be laid at Smith's doorstep. In spite of the popular, grossly over-simplified exposure most people get, many of his ideas are actually quite good - and often very different from what is usually encapsulated. I found Wealth to be a fascinating read - even if I don't necessarily agree with everything. Rather than rejecting it wholesale, it might be worth the effort to wade through his writings. Just a thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by joshua221, posted 09-08-2006 8:37 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by jar, posted 09-08-2006 9:59 PM Quetzal has not replied
 Message 104 by joshua221, posted 09-08-2006 10:47 PM Quetzal has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 103 of 124 (347653)
09-08-2006 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Quetzal
09-08-2006 9:55 PM


Re: This is just about the funniest thing.
When you look at "Wealth" in relation to the period when it was written, it was amazing.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Quetzal, posted 09-08-2006 9:55 PM Quetzal has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 124 (347676)
09-08-2006 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Quetzal
09-08-2006 9:55 PM


Re: This is just about the funniest thing.
Yeah, I kind of took it that way, seeing as none of the items on your list can actually be laid at Smith's doorstep. In spite of the popular, grossly over-simplified exposure most people get, many of his ideas are actually quite good - and often very different from what is usually encapsulated. I found Wealth to be a fascinating read - even if I don't necessarily agree with everything. Rather than rejecting it wholesale, it might be worth the effort to wade through his writings. Just a thought.
Thanks, I think you're right, and I might read it. Although I stick to my views concerning economics. From what CK wrote about it, it made me want to never read it. He made it sound lame I guess.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Quetzal, posted 09-08-2006 9:55 PM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Quetzal, posted 09-08-2006 11:00 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 124 (347678)
09-08-2006 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Taz
09-08-2006 9:05 PM


I think I responded to much of his post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Taz, posted 09-08-2006 9:05 PM Taz has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024